I think DD(18) might have EUPD (BPD). How do I help her?

[copingwitheupd]

Dd has always been very emotional, and can turn from lovely to violently angry in a second. One minute she is friendly and the next she is horribly abusive. She lies about everything and shows no remorse for how she behaves. She is very sensitive and we have to make huge allowances for her in normal everyday things. She uses screens as a way of hiding from the world, and from things she has to do and is a massive procrastinator. She is very academic, and comes across as shy and sweet in public and no one can believe she treats us the way she does. It was a real struggle to get her to school through the sixth form, and she lied a lot to her teachers about her work. She was diagnosed with a mild sleep disorder, and for a long time I thought she would be better if she just got a good night's sleep, but now I think it is worse than that.

I know she has self-harmed and had suicidal thoughts but she won't talk about why, and she refused to keep going to the counsellor we found for her. She did go to the Gp off her own bat, but they just recommended Steps to Well-being and she won't pursue that. She is extremely closed about her feelings, and refuses to talk about her outbursts except to blame everybody else. I think she has soured every family holiday we have ever had.

Lockdown was not going too badly but a couple of weeks ago she flipped for no reason we could see and started attacking her brothers physically, throwing things and breaking plates. She is refusing to have anything to do them or even to eat with us as a family, although she will act fairly normally when they are not around. I thought she had calmed down but then yesterday she tipped a plate of food over her brother just for walking into the kitchen where she was to get a snack. She says she wants them to die, and threatens to hurt them. I feel sick at the thought of the damage growing up with her has done to them, and sick at the thought that she might hurt herself because I love her so much.

Over the years I have googled everything from anxiety to autism to sociopathy but nothing quite fit. Now I'm pretty sure she has EUPD as she fits about 90% of the criteria but I have no idea how to get her help because she won't even entertain the idea of talking to a doctor or counsellor. DH wants to set down some clear boundaries (if she doesn't sit down with to eat she'll have to cook her own food, if she is violent again she will have to leave the house) but I think tough love has never worked with her before so it won't work now. I'm also really hesitant to suggest she has EUPD because I think she will twist that and turn what we say against us.

We are basically looking forward to her going to university in the autumn so we can live a life not tiptoeing on eggshells. It feels horrible to say it but I cannot wait for her to leave. And then I worry that she will crash and burn at university and hurt herself or worse. Or that she will have to come home and I'm not sure I can cope any more with her living in the house permanently (I can just about cope with holidays, I think.)

Does anyone have any recommendations of books to read about how to help her, and manage our family life? Or websites? If you have EUPD did you accept a diagnosis or were you in denial for a long time? What is the best way to stop her being so horrible to us whilst loving her and looking after her?

Tl;dr: I'd love any advice from anyone with experience for DD who I'm pretty sure has EUPD.

Hello!
I have been diagnosed with BPD/Mood disorder.
When did EUPD become an acroym? I actually think it is very insulting.
I had no early trauma, just a family proclivity.
I can absolutely manage this and have for years. However, I had to work for it and make no excuses.

Why can't you say that she sees a professional or no to this? -
Her accommodation at uni for all three years would be in a separate room in a hall, not in a shared house or flat

*Manage with low doses of meds and have a fantastic MH health team. However, I had to work on it.
Your DD wants all your attention focused on her. That's normal.
She hurts. And she is immature enough to want you all to hurt, too.
However, she is a bright girl. She can learn to manage this.

@DamnYankee I don't like 'emotionally unstable' personality disorder either, but it's becoming more fashionable, because Borderline Personality Disorder was used to mean people on the borderline of being psychotic, and not all/not most people with BPD have psychosis or don't like what that implies.

I had no early trauma, just a family proclivity.

True, I think my dad had it/had tendencies. But also, growing up around a person with a volatile personality can be traumatic in itself.

*some don't like

I agree! Just realized that I read BPD as "Bipolar Disorder," and not "Borderline Personality Disorder."

Very sorry!

However, did have a GF like this. He would retreat into his cabin on his property to deal with his "mood swings."

And really believe in the power of meds and a great team.

*Grandfather, not girlfriend....
No propertied lovers, unfortunately

There is usually some kind of family link which leads to this, an event, some type of trauma...it may not be family related but those tend to be the strongest connections we have. I experienced symptoms of BPD after my mother decided fo cut my auntie out of her life, so went from seeing my cousin’s weekly to never again basically. She also cut my grandma out who I was incredibly close with. They were like my sisters & my favourite grandma - I internalised the pain of my loss because my mum made everyone feel like we were better off without them. I wasn’t able to deal with my grief & it turned inward. Many years later was diagnosed bipolar & my grandma is also diagnosed “manic depressive” as they used to call it.

But I believe borderlines (I dislike the EUPD term too) are created from some child trauma, even if they may not recognise it as a trauma or understand why they feel the way they do.

she needs to see a doctor & you must insist on this. If she is causing destruction or is volatile this will affect the whole family. She doesn’t get to disrupt the peace in the family & decline pleas for help.

If you’re unable to insist on this it speaks to the possibility that your daughter is running riot in the house & you need to come down harder on her. That’s my opinion anyway

I think it's interesting that you say she behaves perfectly outside the home/nuclear family... sounds more like autism/ADD... which is why she needs referring and to see professionals.

The pill wouldn't make s difference as it has synthetic oestrogen in it, it would need to be natural oestrogen I think I priced it up at £100 per month.

I suppose not having had your emotional needs met as a young (or not so young) child especially if they feel things very much is a form of trauma because you just don't learn to manage them in a "healthy" way.

My foster daughter has EUPD, and many of the parents I work with have the diagnosis too. It’s definitely trauma based, and the other predominant feature I have seen that you’ve not mentioned is the difficulty in managing any perceived rejection - The vulnerability and needing to be in other people’s thoughts is very strong. I think a lot of us living with young women of this age can wonder if there is something wrong with them, but the reality from my fostering experience is that it’s a very difficult time for many, and it settles. They don’t have a psychiatric disorder but are struggling with so many pressures and transitions. However hard it is, calm connectedness and warmth can always help. Accepting your daughter is going through enormous stress and nurturing her rather than looking for explanation might make a difference. It’s hard, but it gets easier. Look for resources on ‘therapeutic parenting’ - there is an excellent Facebook group.

I agree with copperblack - that has been my personal experience. The controversy with diagnosis it is just a cluster of individual symptoms - which if you take one by one most of us would experience some of them at different times in our lives.

100% bullying and violence is unacceptable but you can deal with it in different ways. NVR parenting helped me.

thechildpsychologyservice.co.uk/therapy-information/non-violent-resistance-nvr/

Sorry, I was using EUPD because I thought that was preferred to BPD.

It's been helpful to think about whether ADD or autism might be the issue. My difficulty comes in getting her to a professional. I can't physically drag her there, and even if I work out some kind of sanction that will persuade her, which is very unlikely, if she is reluctant to engage then she won't get a diagnosis or therapy that will help her. I think this was the problem with the counsellor we tried before - because she didn't want to be there, she didn't engage.

The reason I say a sanction is unlikely to persuade her is that she doesn't respond to them the way my other children do. She seems not to care. The only one she reacts to is when we cut off the Internet, and that has lead to some of her most extreme behaviour, e.g. walking out of the house and threatening to kill herself. I know that is emotional blackmail, but she seems to be so careless of her safety and so desperate that I worry she would hurt herself.

We also don't really have too much say about university, as we won't be funding it. The only things are I could withdraw would be transport to get there, or help with getting ready to go.

I do think her going to stay with someone else for a bit would be good but that's impossible during lockdown. And I think she felt pretty rejected when DH said the other day that if she won't live peacefully in this house she will have to leave.

It's hard to express just how closed she is. She will never talk about her feelings or her motives for her behaviour. She just retreats to her bed and refuses to talk to me. I try to tell her how much I love her and how much I want to help her but she doesn't react, except sometimes by crying. I think I wasn't very good when she was younger at affirming her feelings (because her reactions were so off the wall I couldn't understand them) but I really try to do that now. It doesn't seem to have an effect. She will very occasionally apologise to me for specific things she has done, but she won't ever apologise to her father or brothers.

Gutterton - thanks for your compassion. It sounds like you have had a very difficult time. The orchid and dandelion thing might be a way I could talk to her about her reactions. I do think she does need that soothing, compassionate attention, but I don't know how to stop her hurting other people, whether by taking their stuff or speaking harshly to them or physically hurting them. Her brothers just see her getting away with outrageous behaviour and it feels enormously unfair.

Have you considered npd op? Although it does sound like more bpd to me too in terms of suicide threats ect...without a dr it's hard to know.

I think your husband is right with 'shape up or ship out'. She clearly has control over it so my sympathies would be for my sons and husband and myself first. I get that other posters are encouraging kindness and tolerance but...she is manipulative op and I think you need to set boundaries. For yourself. Not her. But for the treatment you will accept from others in your home.

I know op only shows her family the troubled side but she LIVES with them. She clearly needs to have someone to take it out on - so it'll either be their flatmates or, a partner in uni. Once she goes. Though I understand that there isnt much op can do if they arent funding that move.

*op says she only shows

Your husband is doing the right thing! Shape up or ship out. You need to create boundaries she will respect. A consequence or something which will give her pause & consider doing what you ask.

Say either you do this or this will happen. Then make that happen. Tell the therapist you believe she has borderline personality. So they will go in knowing that, even if she is not engaging.

I would honesty tell her you are sick of her shit & stop coddling her. She is almost 18.

The fact you say she was visibly upset by this when nothing else seems to phase her shows this tough love stance may work.

If she won’t be negotiated with then what other choice to you have ? Otherwise she will be off to uni soon & be out of your hair a little while.

I would honesty tell her you are sick of her shit & stop coddling her. She is almost 18.

When I took the NVR parenting approach - which is recommended where traditional reward and punishment has failed - I looked at my daughter as about 2-3 years old emotionally.

She needed attuning to at that level in a gentle and compassion way that my other 3 dandelion children didn’t. It wasn’t coddling or being soft - it was being appropriate for her unique and specific emotional needs - but like how we had to put in adaptions for her SENs.

WRT the violence with siblings - just put in the proactive one to one stuff with her and this will be a balm that comforts her to stop lashing out at her siblings reactively. Cart before the horse - it worked for me.

My other dandelions also needed support and respect. They had to learn that their sister had an emotional disability and we had to manage her in a different way - and to bear with us.

@gutterton why do you refer to kids as dandelions ? I’m genuinely curious

www.usatoday.com/story/life/allthemoms/2019/03/05/is-your-kid-dandelion-orchid-science-helps-sensitive-kids-thrive/3068000002/

It’s a relatively recent child development research approach.

When I said that I approached my DD as 2-3 years old - she was not at that stage for long - a few months maybe - then her emotional growth and maturating was rapid. She is 18 now but I would say she is like a bouncy 15 year old....and still developing.

But we all continue to emotionally evolve over our adult lives - reflecting, changing and growing a bit with everything life throws at us.

Feel for you OP.

I don't why posters are insisting its "trauma" based. They don't know, but don't let that stop them insisting they know for sure .

The labelling thing is annoying. EUPD, thats a new one for me, though I can see why they want to change it. BDP is also confusing - people use it for BiPolar and Borderline Personality Disorder. But I suppose its just the way things have "developed" in psychiatry as well. My DC has possible PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance). But its not a great word and some people prefer "Compulsive Demand Avoidance", but it takes a long time to change things.

Of course no-one wants to be an armchair psychologist. However, I believe OP said her DD would not see anyone for help or diagnosis. Also specialists get it wrong! E.g. ADHD when its PDA or something else.

A label has uses. It can help make you realise that, for example, punishment doesn't work. Interesting what OP says about compassion (though to be endlessly compassionate when you have an angry and disrespectful child I think is too much to expect from parents all the time).

Just hearing you, OP. You don't have to be superhuman. Few people outside the family will understand. Its hard.

But there are some positive things - your DD is able to move out soon and is fairly independent and soon you will be free at least from the daily struggle. .

I just found her crying because she hates her brothers so much. She says it is normal to hate people and she has always hated them and now can't be bothered to make the effort any more. Our conversation got nowhere and ended with her hitting me on the head and telling me to fuck off.

I don't know where to go with this. I'm sitting here in tears. If I tell her to leave, she has literally nowhere to go. If I cut off her internet it will escalate and she'll end up taking everyone's stuff and hiding it, or walking out into the streets and threatening to kill herself. Even though
I know it is manipulative, she is so incapable of thinking rationally that she might do it.

I wish there was somewhere she could go and stay to calm down a bit. But I don't know if she would ever come back.

I'd be calling the police. Short sharp shock definately needed for her op.

Did she never get a smacked bottom as a child? I know thats frowned on these days but it seems she has never learned that her actions can have consequences. At least, consequences that hurt her.

Does she have a friend she could stay with if you booted her out? If so, I'd tell her she was longer last warning (after she returned from the police station) and that if she ever raised a hand to you or her brothers again, she would be out on her arse.

Ah wait, you said no one...

Hmm, I'd pay for a few months in a hostel for her (single room) ..then once she gets into uni I'd leave her to it.

You have other kids to worry about. You need to protect them from her.

What do you do when she hits you on the head?
I grew up with MH problems of my own but there would have been SERIOUS consequences if I had ever dared to hit one of my parents.

Emotional and sensory overwhelm, resulting in melt downs might “explain” her aggressive and violent acting out - but it never “excuses” it.

The aim is to modify the environment and any interactions so that they match her specific emotional stage right now, deescalating and soothing so that she has time and space to build up her emotional tolerance and skills.

So working with her to identify her triggers, to be aware of and track her rising rage by her body sensations and then learning when and how to intervene with coping strategies early on to interrupt any escalating incidents.

These kids hate themselves after a meltdown. Self loathing sets in and they experience a downward spiral. They are not proactively plotting and manipulating to abuse and cause chaos. Their emotional thermostat doesn’t work and needs recalibrating.

For me it has been v intense, hard work - but fruitful and I am really relieved not to be dealing anymore with her histrionic behaviours and the hurt and erosion of the family unit.

Maybe see the “hate” of her brothers as a toddler jealously. My DD was basically allergic to two of her siblings. She did all of the damage of the property, running from the house in her PJs screaming down the street, physically assaulting me and my DH. It was a living nightmare. It’s not normal and I would seek very specific professional support for you and your DH to manage it.

If she isn’t “fixed” you will be clearing up the mess she makes of her adult life for decades.