To take his word for this?

[olivetreelane]

DH has form of lying and has previously been caught out messaging other women etc.. and a previous emotional affair. We have had counselling and talked at length about boundaries and things that trigger my suspicions (that have on occasion been incorrect) but of course I am not at peace as yet on this road to recovery...

He's been away on a training course for three days this week in his relatively new job. I knew he was in a group of men and women and he said they are at the pub each night etc.. all fine.

I mentioned something regarding COVID19 this evening and he said ah yes I know about that; I was sent some pics by someone. I thought 'someone' and asked who... he said a woman on his course. He seemed quite coy and I thought rather than jumping to any crazy conclusions I simply said ah can I read them (meaning the messages regarding the topic but also I found it strange he's swapped numbers with a woman from somewhere else in the UK who he will never see again and bearing in mind the fragile road we are on).. but guess what; the messages have been deleted! No number, no messages. The photos she sent (albeit covid related and innocent ) are still in his photo stream but it is strange that he has deleted the thread when he never deletes anyone else's messages!

Thoughts wise mumsnetters?

He says he didn't need them. Usual bullshit! I feel it's the same as all the previous times; if nothing to hide then why delete- then I can decide for myself? I can't cope with this level of uncertainly and mistrust. I just needed to write it down I think.

The only reason I struggle to leave is because aside from this he treats me so well as he is attentive, generous, considerate and we get on so well, when we are together. It's when we aren't together or when there is fall out that he does this shit behind my back.

I think this MN analogy is very applicable here - if you could drink a glass of your absolute favourite drink, knowing 1% of it was actual shit, would you still drink it? Of course you wouldn't.

So because someone could be 100% cunt doesn't mean you should accept a 98% or even 70% cunt.

You're being worn down by this. First they tell you you're mad and then you become mad.

You say there's one incident you can't get out of your head. You are having intrusive thoughts that are disrupting your mental health. And he doesn't give a shit.

You've also said that you know given the opportunity he would shag someone else. My love that isn't normal, it isn't what a nice partner with basic decency would do.

He could be single. And then shag whoever he wanted and get his ego stroked etc without hurting anyone. He would rather ruin your confidence, erode your self worth and damage your mental health than do that. So why does he do it? Because he enjoys it. This man enjoys getting away with things, he gets off on "I can do what the fuck I like, she isn't gonna leave me."

God I don't know this man and I hate the cunt. I wish you could see you could have another 10/20/30+ years of this.

I'm scared of coronavirus and would relish the opportunity to self isolate from this absolute wanker.

You poor thing. Do you want to leave him? Regardless of whether you do, can you see that he doesn't love you?

You can't love him hard enough for both of you, it doesn't work like that.

He does not treat you well. That is very, very obvious.

It's when we aren't together or when there is fall out that he does this shit behind my back.

It isn't though?!

He lies to your face

He makes it clear he thinks you're overreacting when he's the one who has made you paranoid and scared to your face

He's done this for 12 years, every year, and says he can't understand why you're "overreacting" to your face

He says YOU are being unfair because he's "behaved" despite having never even gone a year without hurting you deeply - he says that to your face

And on top of all that, he knowingly gets you into debt while you are the breadwinner.

Think how many hours a day your brain spends focusing on the pain this relationship causes. On panicking he's doing it again. On working out how to bring things up without "causing" an argument. On intrusive thoughts about the past.

Every hour like that is an hour of your life you are wasting. You have to choose between a miserable life and a potentially happy one.

You don't know what the future will be like if you leave him and I appreciate that. But you do know what the future will be like if you stay with him. It'll be just like now, hyper vigilant and feeling shit about yourself, just getting worse every year as he does more stuff that hurts you.

Don't waste your life

You get on well and he’s attentive and generous ,
At the same time he’s a sleazy fuck who’s constantly messaging other woman , lying , deleting messages , disrespecting your boundaries . You say you don’t think it’s physical , how many times have women on here said the exact same thing , then guess what DH needs space , time to think about things and within the week they’re shacked up with another woman .
He’s a major headfuck .
He will continue doing just as he is doing , he complains you have a fucked up little brain ( I’d have wiped my dogs arse with his toothbrush after that little outburst no joke )
If you stay , just be prepared to relive this life over and over . There’s billions of people on this earth , you can find someone better , prob within about 7 minutes

Ladies men are good with the ladies. They know how to say the things the little lady wants to hear. They know the tricks to give the impression of being considerate. They know how to present a particular personality for the lady in question.

Men go on courses to learn how to do it; there are best selling self help books on it. For a lot of men this is living the dream.

He is good at the chat olive He whispers the right sweet nothings to you same as them and you all go oh he's so dreamy, imma ignore all the bad boy behaviour, anyway I am special not like his other girls, he is so sensitive and caring unlike other men.

I have given him several times to admit what I'm asking him and he has lied and lied some more, so convincing too. It was only when I could actually show him the evidence that I got some lame excuses

Sigh. Cheaters only ever admit what you already know. They NEVER admit anything at all unless you have concrete proof. And even then they'll twist it and minimise and find every excuse under the sun...... and ultimately blame YOU for it. YOU made him do it!! If you weren't such a ...... (whatever) and/or hadn't done this, that or the other, this pillar of ethical morality would NEVER have strayed from the path of righteousness!!

Can you not stop all your mental and emotional gymnastics and invest this time in becoming emotionally healthy, more astute, stronger, more determined, proactive? Everyone here is telling you that you WILL be happier if you rip this cancer out of your heart - why don't you believe us? Why do you keep on sticking your head in the sand and pretzel yourself to rationalise his appalling behaviour?

Well, you should know why by now, because many posters have told you. But you have to stop the handwringing and actually do the work. Work on yourself so you start to be the strong and happy person you deserve to be in your own right.

@BackseatCookers you're absolutely right.

He does do all of those things to my face. After the emotional affair in 2016 I saw a difference in him and he appeared to understand the impact it had on me emotionally, physically. He was open and transparent; he was also very remorseful, not just sorry for being caught but for his actions and the impact it had on me then.

However, it's been over three years since then and I have seen a steady decline in his understanding of my perspective and feelings. He is back to how he used to be and feels I overreact, look into things that aren't there etc..

I feel really angry today. Really angry that he has done this to me when I have told him to go and he has begged to stay. I have told him I want this to be over, many times, and he talks me round telling me we have a great life, kids etc.. and so I stay.

I tell him he has NO idea how it feels to live a life on edge and yet he doesn't understand that by deleting messages (however innocent he maintains), after all I have told him, especially when in a trigger time ( being in a new job, new exciting colleagues and being away for several days) has really tipped me over the edge! But he doesn't get it. At all.

In short, players are good at playing you.

The best way to out play a player is to exit the game.

@TorkTorkBam He is good at the chat olive He whispers the right sweet nothings to you same as them and you all go oh he's so dreamy, imma ignore all the bad boy behaviour, anyway I am special not like his other girls, he is so sensitive and caring unlike other men.

He is good at the chat. I've seen that with my own eyes; and not always with me too.

I actually contacted the one he had the emotional affair with. She told me many things he complimented her on; they weren't too different to what he tells me. They weren't sexual. Just endearing and charming. Or maybe just sly.

He's never going to get it. It boils down to, he wants to do what he likes, what makes him feel good, and he wants you to shut up about it.

I lived like this for a long time, OP. The relief of getting out was immense. A lot of the relationship was pretty good, like yours, but the crazy-making and gaslighting was so so destructive. He was absolutely devastated when I ended it, but - I wasn't. It was the best thing I ever did for myself.

Ignore the words. Look at the actions.

The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching. - John Wooden

Okay this is the last time I'm going to try and tell you what is so blatantly obvious to everyone here. And yet you INSIST on looking at the back of the mirror, when all you have to do is turn the mirror around and take in what should be staring you in the face.

I tell him he has NO idea how it feels to live a life on edge and yet he doesn't understand .... after all I have told him, (when.... whatever) has really tipped me over the edge! But he doesn't get it. At all.

HE DOES GET IT - BUT HE DOES NOT CARE!!!

He has you just where he wants you. He is eating cake and worries not one jot about your emotional hell and periodic meltdowns. What's more, he actually enjoys toying with you. He is watching your pain with a cruel, detached, inward smirk.

Now, PLEASE, in the name of all that is holy: can you start working on yourself instead of what you are doing to try and appease him and try and make him understand.

Go over this entire thread again and make notes. Even if it hurts to read!
Read those books. These are classics for a reason. I wish I'd had them when I was young... would have saved myself so much anxiety and anguish!
And while we're at it: once you've picked yourself off the floor, you'd benefit from the tough love dished out by Chumplady.

@olivetreelane.... I'm not trying to be mean, believe me. But you desperately need a wake up call. And then do the work.

@FlowerArranger be as brutal as you like; they're actually helping me to get a grip! I need this and every time I read a post like the one you just posted it actually really gives me what I need. I can handle anything you say, even if it's a criticism towards me (which there are many as I am enabling his behaviour)) I really don't mind as I have most definitely lost sight in all of this.

@TorkTorkBam I bloody love that quote! I will hold on to that!

Yep @olivetreelane this is why I stayed too long in this relationship based on lies, because when we were together he treated me like I was precious and meant the world to him (apart from when he lied to my face and told me repeatedly it was all in my head)
I’ve only been single just over a week and I cry a little bit most days but I have so much clarity now and all those red flags together made a hell of a lot of bunting once I put the pieces together.
My judgement was clouded because I had other traumatic things happening outside our relationship and I clung to him even tho he was disrespecting our relationship every change he got.
I still don’t know today the extent of his dishonesty and I’ll have to content myself with never knowing the full truth, but in the end it’s come down to how I feel , how my body feels, how much negative energy it was giving me and how much anxiety was taking away from the kids and the rest of my life.
He was getting to have his cake and eat it, have a loving longterm relationship with me and all the trimmings yet still living as a single guy, getting his ego boosts from beautiful young women and leaving little clues everywhere and then belittling me when I challenged any of it.

@famousforwrongreason sorry to hear that. 😥

Did you end it?
How long were you together for?

I've given you the theory, but @famousforthewrongreason has given you a vivid description of how this plays out in real life.

You say that you need our posts and that you can handle anything, including criticism..... But you are still being passive. I get no sense of a fire burning in your belly, no real determinatio to start doing what you need to do instead of writing yet another mea culpa post.

Start by reading WOMEN WHO LOVE TOO MUCH. It's easy to read and will speak to you. Here are some pertinent quotes:-

www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/6394.Robin_Norwood

“The key is in learning how to live a healthy, satisfying, and serene life without being dependent on another person for happiness.”
― Robin Norwood, Women Who Love Too Much

So @olivetreelane what are you planning to do?

What can you do this week?
By the end of the month?
By the end of the year?

Give yourself some actions and deadlines.

In a future, normal, loving relationship, you could have a partner who makes you feel so secure (and you'll do the same for him) that if he goes away for a few days, you want him to get on well with colleagues, have a great time and are excited for him to come home and for you both to catch up - telling him what you've been up to while he's been away because you'll have used that time to see friends, have netflix binges, eat what you like etc.

That probably feels impossible now - that him going on a night out just wouldn't be a big deal at all, you'd just think I hope he has a great time and you'd know he'll come home and get into bed tipsy and give you a lovely cuddle.

I spent years of my life a paranoid nervous wreck and now those scenarios above are how I feel. It is so freeing and so fun.

I can be myself and not the paranoid, negative and resentful person his behaviour caused me to become.

I hope you can get there too

@FlowerArranger @BackseatCookers ladies thank you both so so much.
Your posts have made me cry. But only because it's the realisation of what I deserve in life.

I know I need an action plan. I'm scared and feel like it's easier to stay (especially when some of my forthcoming work is going to be cancelled due to CV) for now.

My ring has been off since Friday. He knows I am serious. Although if Im honest its not the first time it's been off. He has spent the weekend ignoring me and is now doing the things he usually does to engage with me again and he said ' this is going to be a long slog, isn't it' which I'm not entirely sure what he meant by that as I am not engaging anymore.

I'll do an action plan and come back. I'll get there.

The thought of having a relationship like that @BackseatCookers sounds completely alien like to me. My DH would probably say it's fantasy and bullshit as most men he knows are actually shagging others and he feels he's just a good guy whose occasionally slipped up! Even though it's been at least once every year for 12 years!

Its not a fantasy to have a relationship with a man you fully trust and don't expect to be messaging other women. You can have this and you deserve to have it with someone else

You really only have two choices ... accept him and his cheating. Pretend it doesn’t exist to protect your mental health.
Or leave.

He is who is is and he’s not going to change. He might get better at hiding his cheating but that’s the best he’s going to get.

He might say he loves you but his actions are weak and prove otherwise. I think if you stay he will eventually leave you for another woman. Sorry but that’s what his actions show.

This type of relationship is so draining you don’t realise until you are out how free you can feel. How your mind feels so much more at peace. I felt my ex was always minimising everything he did (oh it was just a Facebook comment it meant nothing! I just joined the dating site for a laugh etc etc). I kind
If just pushed it away as I wanted it all
To be OK.
I wish I left so much earlier than I did. But I will never regret leaving him, and I’m proud I managed to do it.
You deserve happiness and peace and you can’t get it being in a relationship with someone like that

@olivetreelane we were only together two years but I really fell in love with him. I also realised I have followed a pattern and he’s not the first liar I’ve been with. I’d seen red flags early on but they were talked through and I believed it was an ‘early days misunderstanding’ until the same thing happened again. And again. Each time with another plausible excuse.
We split a few times then I kept finding out more and more that he’d let slip until I found him out in a blatant but also stupid and pointless lie and it was too my face, an out and out’black is white’ kind of tale.
So it was my last straw. I ended it there and then. He still doesn’t know I know he lied. I cba. He’ll just lie about the lie and use my mental health to excuse it. Then we’d argue for a few days, then we’d shag and the whole cycle starts again.
Withholding the lie meant we followed a different route this time and despite his minor efforts I had nothing to get dragged into.

It is normal to trust your spouse and for them to be trustworthy.

I honestly never bat an eyelid if DH goes out with people. If he messages one of the mums about sporting fixtures for the teens at the weekend it would never cross my mind to have concerns. Sometimes he might come back from buying milk saying he had a lovely chat with Sam's mum about x,y,z in the queue at the Co-op, isn't she a nice person: I wouldn't be thinking about checking his phone, I'd be thinking we should go down the pub with that couple more often.

Of course your DH would say all men are like this. He is maintaining cake. He wants you to stick around. He will of course be keeping all the other women too.

Perhaps, if you can not being yourself to end the relationship because \insert justifications\ (such as - you think you have a -somewhat distorted- moral obligation as you are the main bread winner) (or you don't want to be a "bitch" )... then convince him to end the relationship. Stop having sex with him. Make him get a STI check. Separate your finances.
give him a slight allowance if he's a good boy
The number one thing you need to do imho is:
Stop caring what he thinks/says/does. That's a page out of his playbook; it is certainly valid to get off the one way street.
This is emotional disconnection.
Once you can emotionally disconnect, the physical separation will be nothing more than administrative.