To take his word for this?

[olivetreelane]

DH has form of lying and has previously been caught out messaging other women etc.. and a previous emotional affair. We have had counselling and talked at length about boundaries and things that trigger my suspicions (that have on occasion been incorrect) but of course I am not at peace as yet on this road to recovery...

He's been away on a training course for three days this week in his relatively new job. I knew he was in a group of men and women and he said they are at the pub each night etc.. all fine.

I mentioned something regarding COVID19 this evening and he said ah yes I know about that; I was sent some pics by someone. I thought 'someone' and asked who... he said a woman on his course. He seemed quite coy and I thought rather than jumping to any crazy conclusions I simply said ah can I read them (meaning the messages regarding the topic but also I found it strange he's swapped numbers with a woman from somewhere else in the UK who he will never see again and bearing in mind the fragile road we are on).. but guess what; the messages have been deleted! No number, no messages. The photos she sent (albeit covid related and innocent ) are still in his photo stream but it is strange that he has deleted the thread when he never deletes anyone else's messages!

Thoughts wise mumsnetters?

He says he didn't need them. Usual bullshit! I feel it's the same as all the previous times; if nothing to hide then why delete- then I can decide for myself? I can't cope with this level of uncertainly and mistrust. I just needed to write it down I think.

Good liars tell half the truth because it's far more convincing and easier to remember than an outright lie

He's irritated because he maintains I have this all wrong and he hasn't done anything wrong to warrant me saying I have finally had enough.

You do not have to justify yourself to him. Tell him it’s not working for you anymore. He will Adle your brain. He’s tying you in knots.
Has he saved her number under a different name.
He could have slept with her whilst he was away.
He is not respecting you.
Dump him - don’t waste you life on the liar.
You’ve invested a lot in him. He’s not worth it.
Go to therapy alone if your struggling to end it. Talk it through.

It's not up to HIM to decide whether YOU have had enough. If he didn't want the relationship to end he shouldn't have given his number, texted a random woman then deleted those texts. Your boundaries were perfectly healthy. Don't doubt yourself. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. If he doesn't like it, tough shit

@olivetreelane

He's irritated because he maintains I have this all wrong and he hasn't done anything wrong to warrant me saying I have finally had enough.

Are you aware that he has zero say in your decisions?

I mean - unless you decide he has veto power?? Who gives a fuck what a feckless man with a limited understanding of how to be truthful has to say? Honestly. Hes just some man. Hes not special. There are billions of men in the world and he isnt even a good example of one...

Why does he have this much power over you? Serious question. Why do you think he is so special??

He wants you to continue treating each incident like the first, standalone, no patterns of behaviour.

Remember Chump Lady's theory of maintaining cake? That's his strategy: keep both lives running.

His tactic is to create some deniability each time he gets caught and to keep it out of context of the rest. You are playing into his trap again.

Yes I get that. He is treating each time like a stand-alone as they all have circumstances around them that he is able to make excuses for or a rationale on why, and this time that I have got it wrong.

He does treat me well otherwise and that's what makes it difficult to walk away, especially when we have so much of our lives intertwined.

But that makes sense about the fact that he's not going to stop doing this to me. I have issues with him connecting with women he doesn't know on social media and I can see he has done this over the weekend too (and it'll be cos he's annoyed with me).

If I listed here the amount of times he has done this you would all have kittens! I know what I need to do. I honestly do.

I posted about his emotional affair with a colleague back in 2016 (under a different username) and that was the most awful time for me. He's not been loyal since then and there have been other times he has messaged other colleagues and lied about them too.

What is wrong with me? How have I managed to justify all of his behaviour when every time I find out I experience such emotional pain, and all the time in between I am hyper vigilant and anxious waiting for it to happen again.

Fgs OP just walk away and stop trying to explain him. He’s a sleazy cunt.. You know it, we know it, the colleagues he’s letching on know it..

You get one life! Why on earth are you wasting it on this cretin?

‘What is wrong with me? How have I managed to justify all of his behaviour when every time I find out I experience such emotional pain, and all the time in between I am hyper vigilant and anxious waiting for it to happen again.’
This is exactly how I felt in my most recent relationship. Such a horrible way of existence. it’s also very common sadly. It’s almost like we ignore all the signs and spend our whole time looking for or waiting for, actual irrefutable 100% proof, ie old school catching them ‘at it’. The advent of social media, locked phones etc mean it’s easier than ever before to be unfaithful and to cover your footsteps.
The anxiety , doubt , hyper vigilance and worry is crazy making in the extreme.
Nobody is worth that amount of energy.

I really hope you will see, he’s given you all the evidence you need already

No he didn't do it because he is annoyed with you. He did it because he wanted to. He likes it. It is fun. It is his hobby.

Maybe be let you be aware because he is annoyed with you for going on about it when you both know this is how your relationship works.

Maybe he gets off on the power trip of knowing what a god amongst men he is that you will adore at his golden cock even as he's at it pretty much openly within a breath of you moaning about the last one. What a buzz. Women all believe he is the best. You even pay for him to have a nicer life than he can afford himself. Do you wash his underpants, cook his dinner and buy his mum birthday cards too?

I wish you could ‘hear’ the desperation in your posts that I can. I have been there Op, wanting answers that are believable, trying to rationalise the behaviour, the constant doubts, the sick feeling when they go out, trying to make them see things from your point of view, trying to change them.

Bottom line is you can live the rest of your life like this, because nothing will change or leave and have peace of mind . There is no in-between .

To be fair he does half of all the household chores and childcare, sometimes more due for the nature of my work. I sometimes wonder if some of this makes him feel inferior to me (as he has told me that) and is another reason he needs to seek female affirmation and attention elsewhere, because I cannot give it to him all of the time.

NOw you are just making excuses for him

I am hearing what you are all saying. I also agree with you all. I'm just answering things honestly.

I do believe he isn't physically cheating, he doesn't really go out but I do know what he gets up to and he has over stepped the line too many times. Despite the fact that he feels bereft about taking some shit corona photos last week has meant both giving his number to a woman in her 20's, deleting the history of them and subsequently not understanding how this is not okay has made me start this thread and make the steps to get out of this toxic way to live my life.

I do wish he could understand it but I don't think he ever will.

I tied myself in knots trying to make my ex see things from my point of view , once it finally sank in that he never would, I felt a sense of relief in a way , I just sort of mentally let it go and then I was able to focus on the important stuff such as getting on with my life without him.

What is wrong with me?

In a nutshell? You lack confidence in your ability to make decisions that are right for yourself. You appear to have an anxious and insecure attachment style, and are afraid of being abandoned. You also lack self-esteem and boundaries, and you are emotionally needy. Neediness is tied in with lack of self-esteem, an inability to be alone or rely on your own instincts, and a need for others to fulfil your emotional emptiness.

You would benefit from individual counselling to explore these issues. But there are also books (see below) and online resources that would help you gain insight into what is wrong with you. Your issues are very common, so don't beat yourself up - but do take action to address them. You'll be so much happier if you do. And hopefully strong enough to give your cheating husband his marching orders.

Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood

Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend

Jesus. What a waste of a life.

I have previously left a 10 year relationship and had two small DC so I know I can do it alone. I'm not sure why I am struggling so much this time, I guess it's cos I love him so much.

I totally know I would finally be at peace if I am not living in this hyper vigilant state anymore though. It's gone on for far too long and too many times.

I'll order those books and arrange my own counselling too.

@Sofacat , ditto
The sense of a weight lifting is so freeing, when you finally let go and let the blinkers drop

Sick systems:
www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html

I know I have been weak but I have made many (yes too many) allowances to try to understand his need for external affirmation and the fact he hasn't taken any of these occurrences to a physical level.

Putting aside for a minute that I feel certain someone like him has physically cheated, I think it would be good for your mental health to consider the next question.

Do you hand on heart believe that if he had the opportunity - say he was away for a week and an attractive women came onto him, or he got on with someone on a work course and really fancied her - that he wouldn't go through with sleeping with her if she wanted to?

Do you believe that if he thought you wouldn't find out (or that he could convince you it didn't happen) that he wouldn't go through with sleeping with her if she wanted to?

If you think he would then think about what that means for your sense of security and self worth.

I've been in a relationship where there were lies, then lies about lies and constant 'well I couldn't tell you because I knew you'd go mad' arguments.

Once you know they can look you in the eye and lie, or they can say something and know you know it's a lie but you'll stay anyway, it's already over.

Do you think this will get better? Do you think you'll ever be able to not question his behaviour or feel suspicious and anxious when he does something like this?

You will waste your life on this man and he will hurt you over and over and over.

You don't need to wait until you "know" he has physically cheated, or until you have irrefutable evidence.

You know he's horrible to you, a liar and would shag someone else given the opportunity if he thought you wouldn't find out.

You must start making plans to leave this relationship.

Bravo @BackseatCookers
OP you have so much good advice on here.
Think how happy you can be once you emancipate yourself (from mental slavery -thanks Bob)

@BackseatCookers unfortunately I do believe that if he was away and in that situation I would not trust him at all, as long as he knew I wouldn't find out.

There have been times where I have the evidence in front of me and I have given him several times to admit what I'm asking him and he has lied and lied some more, so convincing too. It was only when I could actually show him the evidence that I got some lame excuses as to why he was messaging that particular colleague he didn't work with any longer.

There are other times where I still do not feel satisfied (given how much of a compulsive liar he is) that I have the full truth, especially when things don't add up. One particular incident consumes my mind regularly and I hate him for that.

@famousforwrongreason yes I know. This mental torture is the worst. Knowing that the person you love and who you have been 100% loyal to for over a decade can disrespect you so easily for their own gain is not how I ever envisaged living my life after a previous abusive relationship.

The only reason I struggle to leave is because aside from this he treats me so well as he is attentive, generous, considerate and we get on so well, when we are together. It's when we aren't together or when there is fall out that he does this shit behind my back.

He does not treat you well! He does what he has to do to keep you compliant. He doesn't respect you, care about you or is generous with you. He is manipulating you so you don't leave when he cheats. Considerate????? Raise your bar. A man who lied to you is not considerate. You are not role modelling a healthy relationship for your children and you need to wake up to the responsibility to do that