Who pays?

[Mango101]

Grateful for some advice...

I've just starting dating again (M, 50s).

I joined Guardian Soulmates and met a woman for drinks (£34 paid by me, she left for the toilets when the waiter came) - we got on well. We're both keen to meet again - she suggested a restaurant (which happens to be fairly expensive (probably £120 for two), but very nice).

But I'm beginning to have dilemmas about what to do when the bill arrives !

I kind of feel we're both equal adults (although I earn more as a doctor, she's a social worker) and the grown up thing is to split the bill ('man pays' feels old-fashioned and a bit transactional). But I'm worried that any discussion along these lines (either before or after the meal) would feel very unromantic particularly if she has expectations that I'd pay.

What should I do ? - I don't really want to have to pay £150ish every time I go on a couple of dates, and at my age, it may take a lot of dates before I find someone who'll find me attractive !

Did your date go to the toilet after she had finished her drink, or did she actually wait for the waiter to bring the bill and then left the table?

She's taking the piss. See's you as a meal ticket

I think this is a little harsh. Maybe she is planning on it being on her as it was her suggestion and OP paid £34 for their drinks???

A woman who chose to disappear to the loo when the bill arrived, who chose to say NOTHING about it when she came back - is going to do this to you again....and this time in a pricey restaurant.

You paid for the first date and i bet she expects you to pay for this one too.....maybe she'll very conveniently have forgotten her ourse/card when the bill arrives.....

Hmm, bit of a tricky one. I can see why you don't want to ask, but can also see why you don't want to pay every time. My advice would be either see if she offers (though if she doesn't, you're a bit stuffed), or try talking about a cheaper alternative beforehand so if you get stuck with the bill, it's not so steep. She may well offer if it's so expensive

The 1940s Lola? When most women were out working, because the men were in Europe/Africa/Far East fighting the war you mean?

phil
You and I both know they weren't working on the same terms as men.
The gender roles were still reasonably fixed within marriages.
There wasn't the same rights and protections for women as men.

The feminism movement still took a while to get going and start pushing for more meaningful equality changes.

But of course, the post war era really was the age of equality. The breadwinner and housewife model had totally died by the mid 20th century.

Backforgood You're spot on. Sometimes I see the promotion of limited gender roles on MN and feel my eyes rolling backwards into my head.

By there isn't equality. Do men do their fair share of housework and childcare? No they only want the bits that suit them.

Thay would depend on the man. Do does more than his fair share. I work longer hours. He does all the washing and most of the cooking and cleaning.

Its nor actually that difficult to find a man who does his fair share.

By there isn't equality. Do men do their fair share of housework and childcare? No they only want the bits that suit them
So them paying for dates is some weird payback for being useless?

No. I wouldn't date a man who claims incompetence around the house, who thinks he's 'helped' by doing the laundry, and I'm sure DH wouldn't be dating a woman who expects a man to pick up the tab to prove he'sa gentleman.

Do men do their fair share of housework and childcare? No they only want the bits that suit them

Depends on the man you choose.

Mine shares everything 50/50 but I made it clear from the start I expected an equal. In return, I share the financial burden with him. We feel it’s a good role model situation for the children.

The few men I know that do little housework have a spouse that doesn’t work so have opted out of sharing the financial load and therefore it’s not realistic for the man to shoulder all of that plus half of everything else.

On the dating scene it should always be a 50:50 split. I'd never expect a date to pay for me, especially if I knew I didn't want to see him again.

She is taking the piss. Message her saying it looks like an expensive place and is she willing to go halfs. Cheeky bitch.

I have never let a man pay for me. What is he buying? Horrible lack of self respect from women who do that.

Now I know we are all equal etc etc BUT it really turns me off if a bloke asks to asks to split the bill. I know that's irrational , but it does.

I would suggest somewhere cheaper and pay the bill

I agree this is awkward. If someone I was out with didn’t suggest splitting the bill I wouldn’t be seeing them again. I’m female and would never expect the man to pay. If he insisted then I would suggest paying the next time.
I don’t think you’re going to know what her intentions are until you’re there. If she doesn’t offer to contribute you have your answer. I think it’s cheeky of her to suggest such an expensive meal anyway on a second date. You could suggest an alternative maybe.
My gut feeling is that she will expect you to pay again. I may be wrong of course

Good grief. No wonder women get treated like rubbish these days

They have zero expectations of men.
He doesn't have to plan a date or pay for one. He doesn't have to treat her or make her feel special.

Believe it or not chivalry isn't quite dead yet. Nearly 90% of men believe they should pay for the first date.

If a man takes a client out to lunch, he doesn't expect to go dutch, nor does he whinge and moan about it either.

So why does he pay?

Why in the name of "equality" are women bending over backwards to prove you’re better than other women who ask for more?

Why on earth would you want less for yourself?
Trashing other women for wanting and demanding the treatment and things you think you’re above does not make you an ideal catch for men.

Do you think you'll be treated better or respected more for paying your own way (and his) and taking up less space; as well as letting a man use your body for months with being the cool girl to keep it casual with no relationship label?

They have zero expectations of men.
He doesn't have to plan a date or pay for one. He doesn't have to treat her or make her feel special
Or some of us equate equality and valuing your partner as more than paying for a nice meal.

If a man takes a client out to lunch, he doesn't expect to go dutch, nor does he whinge and moan about it either.
So why does he pay?
If his line of work is anything like when I did work lunches it's because it was funded by work, not me.
Thankfully i don't compare my relationships and dating to a business transaction.

Why in the name of "equality" are women bending over backwards to prove you’re better than other women who ask for more?

Why on earth would you want less for yourself?
I want equality in a relationship.
I want an equal partnership.
I want a relationship where my career is s valued and as important as my partner's.
I want a relationship where we are financially equal, not perfectly monetarily matched but one where we have similar obligations until such a time when circumstances change
I want a man who doesn't expect me to do the wife work.
I want a man who does his fair share of the housework because he is a grown ass man and functioning adult, not a man child who needs to be nagged by his mother
I want a man who values being a parent and views active parenting an essential part of being a good father
I want a man who views our relationship as a partnership
I want a man who is aware of the barriers that affect women disproportionately

... Believe me, not expecting a man to pay my meal on a date does NOT mean I expect less.

Do you think you'll be treated better or respected more for paying your own way (and his) and taking up less space; as well as letting a man use your body for months with being the cool girl to keep it casual with no relationship label?

I'm absolutely pissing myself laughing at your belief that that women get treated badly by men because not expecting to be wined and dined means we have low standards on dates, let our bodies be used, want to avoid the relationship label and so on. What utter tosh.
Bonus points for the cool girl reference

I'd rather see women taking a stand on not cohabiting with feckless man children who think doing the dishes is "helping" and expecting adult men to do their fair share, rather than seeing them fall over themselves to argue that paying on a date is the sign of a good man. Isn't that how we get people gushing over their DP for the bouquet of flowers he bought when for the last 3 weeks they've been bitching about his lack of help around the house... But it's ok. The day to day sexist division of labour is fine as long as he gets some jewellery and treats you to a nice meal for date night.

I must admit that if it were me, after pulling the "going to the loo trick" there wouldn't have been a second date.

@RantyAnty So it’s okay for women to be stingy and disrespectful? I’m really shocked by your post. I didn’t know ANYONE had opinions like this anymore! It’s not 1950 of course men and women should pay half each! What nonsense you’re talking!

Whoever asked for the date pays, surely that is just good manners?

If a man takes a client out to lunch, he doesn't expect to go dutch, nor does he whinge and moan about it either.

Dating isnt a business transaction.

Also, do you not believe women take clients out and pay? Born men a d women takes clients out for lunch and pay. So what exactly is the point?

Why on earth would you want less for yourself?

I dont want less for myself. What I want, I provide. What I wanted, when dating, was a partner. Not someone who finances me or pays for expensive meals, that I wouldnt pay the money for.

No man uses my body in casual relationships. Casual relationship arent my thing.

I agree that sometimes women are in casual relationships when they want more. Thats not good. But many women want casual relationships. They dont want to dive into commitment or not want commitment at all. Their bodies arent being used. They are enjoying sex.

But again when are you linking paying for dates and sex? Do you believe if a man pays for dinner, he must want a serious relationship? You dont think men, ever pay for things AND want a casual relationship?

Being independent and equal isnt having or asking for less. It's such a shame you see it that way.

I always find it quite worrying that some people will essentially sell themselves as a product on a date.

The thought of allowing or even wanting someone to buy my company for a few hours seems really seedy.

If you are having a second date, i would make sure that even if she's displeased you insist the restaurant split the bill and pay only half.

By there isn't equality. Do men do their fair share of housework and childcare? No they only want the bits that suit them.

Such a bullshit arguement. Like you are sharing childcare or housework when you first start dating. You have no idea how he will be in regards to them. I dated a lot of good uns and bad and there was zero corrolation with date paying.

In fact I've heard the from friends, some men paying expecting 'favours' rather then treating well.

I think she sounds cheeky OP and has decided that she's a better catch than you, but wants to get a pricey free meal in the process. A second date should be about getting to know the other person better, not a gourmet extravaganza.

If you've not already been on the date, I would suggest you contact her and say that chez swanky was booked out but you've managed to get a table at nicebutreasonable establishment instead. Her reaction will tell her everything you need to know.

If a man takes a client out to lunch, he doesn't expect to go dutch, nor does he whinge and moan about it either.

This is dangerously close to suggesting that a man can buy a woman's favours. I wouldn't go there if I were you!

Given the rest of your post @RantyAnty I can only assume that you're a man - if not, you're certainly a person with a very poor and limited understanding of what equality should be, and why women might want it. And let me give you a clue - it has nothing to do with chivalry or trashing other women.

@RantyAnty

Nearly 90% of men believe they should pay for the first date.

So yet again, because this is something that men want, they should get it?