Who pays?

[Mango101]

Grateful for some advice...

I've just starting dating again (M, 50s).

I joined Guardian Soulmates and met a woman for drinks (£34 paid by me, she left for the toilets when the waiter came) - we got on well. We're both keen to meet again - she suggested a restaurant (which happens to be fairly expensive (probably £120 for two), but very nice).

But I'm beginning to have dilemmas about what to do when the bill arrives !

I kind of feel we're both equal adults (although I earn more as a doctor, she's a social worker) and the grown up thing is to split the bill ('man pays' feels old-fashioned and a bit transactional). But I'm worried that any discussion along these lines (either before or after the meal) would feel very unromantic particularly if she has expectations that I'd pay.

What should I do ? - I don't really want to have to pay £150ish every time I go on a couple of dates, and at my age, it may take a lot of dates before I find someone who'll find me attractive !

*You must not be that interested in her if you're already thinking about who pays.

If you are trying to court her and you like her, then you pay.

I pay half when I'm going out with friends. I'm not dating them so if I pay half on a date, it means I'm not interested and it will be the last date. If a guy hints at it, it'll be the last date. I don't put up with stingy disrespectful guys.*

Well we are all the way we are, I would 100% not date you and you wouldn’t date me. This is the beauty of choice

What's with the ageism? Lots of women in their 70s and older have made their own way in life and would never dream of expecting men to do anything other than go halves! In fact, once people stop working and are reliant on pensions etc, they are acutely aware that their beau(x!!) cannot splash out willy-nilly.

You must not be that interested in her if you're already thinking about who pays.

But on the other hand, in the early days you set the expectations and boundaries. Say this potentially becomes a relationship op doesn't want to find himself basically finding the lifestyle of this woman while her earnings remain hers.

Sorry OP, that doesn't help you!
When you say she was at the loo had she popped there already before the bill came, or was it more of a "time for a sharp exit" move?

I think going for a coffee is much better for a second date tbh. You'll know whether you want to meet up again or not.

RantyAnty presumably you're OK with them thinking you're stingy and disrespectful?

I think you were kind enough to pay the first time and I do think that was the right thing to do but moving forward I wouldn’t feel comfortable as a woman or expect you in any way to pay for the next date. Maybe she’s thinking of treating you as it was her suggestion.

phil
Yes that's the case, however it's fairly obvious that the idea of stereotypical, fixed gender norms where men are expected to pay and show they can provide was more dominant multiple decades ago than now, just like the man as breadwinner/woman as housewife was more prevalent decades ago. People have to be able to comment on that without claims of ageism.

Some people have the double standard where they expect to be provided for when it suits. There was a thread recently where some women were talking about the sort of traditional gentleman appeal and how they find that attractive, but then seemed surprised that might also go hand in hand with other traditional views regarding whose career comes first, who runs the house etc.

I suppose we subconsciously form friendships with those that have similar outlooks on life and beliefs. I have friends in their 50s, 60s, and 70s that date (well, they usually say "seeing a friend" actually) and they always go dutch or pay for alternate outings.
But all have them have had careers, and been equal or sole breadwinners for their families.

I'm regular dater (my choice) and it's always Dutch. TBH it feels more comfortable and it means they are a invested.

If I had been on that date OP, I would see that as a red flag and there wouldn't be a next date.
And FYI for previous posters its not about being stingy or disrespectful it's about being streetwise.

Yeah bit worried that she sees you as a rich doctor and will be expecting you to pay. Her disappearing to the loo when the bill arrived (and not making any attempt to pay half or acknowledging it or "I'll pay next time") would be a red flag for me.
Good solution suggested by someone up thread - messaging her to say that sounds great but I can't let you pay so I insist on paying half!

Many thanks for some great advice and comments !

To those who asked- no she didn't offer to pay when she came back from loo- but it didn't cross my mind as a thing until she subsequently suggested the expensive restaurant.

I'll update when we've had the next date :)

@RantyAnty what a bizarre attitude...

@BIWI
Totally agree with you - I'm nearly 70 and sick to death of the way my generation is viewed by those who know nothing about me.
And @user1480880826
You can’t pretend there is no difference in how this subject is viewed by different generations?
This is bollocks - the subject will be viewed differently by different people no matter what their age.

I'm around your age and have been online dating. I think your date was cheeky.

I don't earn very much but do a job I enjoy. I would ALWAYS offer to pay my way on a date. Even if I just have a coffee with someone and they buy the first one I would offer to buy the next.

It’s nothing to do with age and everything to do with people that are rude or not.

Every generation has cheeky feckers. You just need to weed them out when dating! Come up with some day date ideas that don’t cost the earth. A walk pins your local national trust property, museum and coffee etc. Also, a day coffee is a really easy first date without putting in too much effort in terms of sitters and expense. Online dating can be fun (I met my dh on OLD) you just need to get streamlined.

Anyone glaikit enough to go on a second date with a CF like this to an expensive restaurant is almost asking to be mugged off. She's taking you for a ride, OP.

Personally I think it is very gentlemanly if the man pays for the first date, but equally I would always offer to pay half.
Be careful as she could possibly quite entitled/expectant to suggest such an expensive restaurant in the first place.

Definitely ask to split next time. But don't let it worry you; it's a good sign of whether she's a keeper or not!

I wouldn't want to go for a meal yet, at this stage I'd be far more comfortable meeting again for drinks or coffee.

I'm at a similar stage in life but a woman and if we were to have drinks I'd offer to pay as you did last time. If we did do a meal I would want to pay half. If you go to the meal and she doesn't offer to pay half I wouldn't want to see her again, times have changed and while it's nice to be treated occasionally in a more committed relationship at the beginning I'd like some parity.

I wouldn't bother with the second but if you do, agree on a cheaper restaurant, simple really.

This is bollocks - the subject will be viewed differently by different people no matter what their age.
So dominant social norms totally don't exist, have never existed and everyone should pretend that they aren't really and have never been a thing for fear of someone being offended?

Let's get a time machine back to 1940s/1950s and see whether there were any dominant gender norms then shall we? What about 1900? Nope, no dominant ideas about men and women to see here either. In fact, all the women's rights and feminist movements didn't know what they were talking about because there's never been any different dominant views in times gone by at all.

I’m 60 and have never expected a man to pay for me.
I can’t abide freeloaders. Something very distasteful about them.
Keep an eye on her Op, her visit to the loo was impeccably timed wasn’t it?
I think what a pp suggested is ideal: contact before, suggest a cheaper alternative and splitting the bill.
And don’t be embarrassed about mentioning splitting the bill - she wasn’t embarrassed to allow you to pay previously.

The dates I've been on the men tend to pay for the meal and I do before and after drinks and the tip. But I wouldn't suggest anywhere so expensive. And I have always offered to split.

@coldfeetallthetime

Yes - I enjoyed dating again - so many men ..... so little time ........

Many of the posters here have not been in the dating game for years.

No, but when I was dating 30 odd years ago, I'd never have expected to 'be paid for' at any point in the relationship. The only exception would be if we did a 'turn and turn about' on dates.

@user1480880826 - What a ridiculous, ageist statement. I'm mid 50s and would never expect the decsion as to who pays to be made on whether they had a penis or not

Well said @BIWI

You can’t pretend there is no difference in how this subject is viewed by different generations? Of course there will be women who have always insisted on paying for themselves but you have to admit it used to be the norm that men were expected to pay. Fortunately things have changed for the better.

@user1480880826 It doesn't sound as if 'things have changed for the better' going by this thread. The fact it has even been raised as a question indicates that things have gone backwards since the 1980s and don't even start me on the massive 'genderisation' of what just used to be 'toys'

@RantyAnty - In my mind that works both ways. I hope my ds would notice what a stingy, entitled person they were if anyone acted like that on a first or second date, and left the potential relationship there.