Help me understand this - proposal

[CoffeeThroughAnIvDrip]

DP and I have been together many years and have 3 young DC’s together.
When we first started dating, we had a light hearted chat about weddings, and way back then, I was still romanticising the idea of the ‘big white wedding’. I used to dream of a designer dress and matching shoes, a huge array of guests, just a massive deal made out of it all. DP was never of the same view, and stated he didn’t see the point in wasting so much money on one day, and thought people should just cheaply elope or have a registry office do instead.

As the years past (and DC’s added to our family) I ‘woke up’ and realised that I no longer wanted that big wedding, that marriage itself was way more important to me than the wedding day (as it should be!), and I ended up telling DP about how my views had changed and had become much more, simple, for lack of a better word.

Another year or so went by, with each of us talking about engagements and weddings and marriage (not always prompted by me!), and we still wasn’t engaged and no closer to being so.
One evening, after yet another talk about getting engaged, I was browsing rings online. Found one I fell in love with, and we ordered it.

It then came to light that DP’s views on weddings had changed since we first met. He’s now no longer comfortable with the idea of a registry office wedding or eloping, and instead wants something small with just close friends and family at a little venue close to our home. He wants our DC’s included in the ceremony, a car to arrive in etc - so quite the backtrack on what I’d been told years ago!

Anyway, the ring has now been sitting in our bedroom for four months. I’ve told DP I don’t want a huge deal made out of the proposal, I don’t want the thrills or the surprise (not that I’m going to be surprised in any way, shape or form since we already have the ring!), I don’t want elaborate planning having gone in to it, I just want us to be able to sit down and say ‘yes, we’re committed to each other, we’re now engaged and we’re going to knuckle down and start saving for a small wedding’. Done. That’s all I want and need. But dp has been insistent on doing something ‘proper’ for the proposal - apparently he WANTS to propose and experience the moment of doing it, and not just decide we’re engaged after a conversation.

So, we agreed no money would be put in to the proposal, because I think something lovely and romantic can be done at home, if the romance and that ‘moment’ is what he really wants to experience, he can definitely create that in our lounge (cheap flowers, a nice home cooked dinner, my favourite music playing, ask me to marry him, boom, sorted).
4 months I’ve been waiting (well, 4 months of having the ring, but I’ve actually been waiting years by this point), wondering what he could possibly be planning that couldn’t have happened since the ring arrived in June.

Well, it was my birthday last week. DP got me some amazing gifts which I’m so thankful for, got me a lovely card from the DC’s, but I didn’t receive a card from him. He knows I love to get a card from him, but is notorious for writing them out then misplacing them (he literally has a stack of birthday, Christmas and valentines cards that he never gets round to giving me because he always forgets where they end up 🙄 he also has stacks for his mum and his sister too!) but this morning, whilst sorting through our washing and putting some bits away, I came across an envelope in his sock drawer that appeared to have a birthday card inside, addressed to me. Given his history with cards, I assumed this was yet another card he’d forgotten about, so I opened it.

The card on the front read ‘to my fiancé on your birthday’, inside he’d written a birthday message then at the bottom wrote ‘now it’s official’.

I’m so confused and frankly, quite upset. We’ve had so many talks about engagement and marriage, especially over the last year, he knows I don’t want a fuss made and am more than happy to have a ‘no huge expenditure, no thrills’ proposal and an equally cheap wedding day, so to learn he was going to propose last week at home, likely after we’d got the DC’s to bed (perfect! No fuss!) is like a slap round the face to discover that for some reason, he’s chosen not to do it.

I don’t know what to think or feel.

(Please don’t comment about how precarious my situation is having dc before marriage. I am aware of the ramifications should we ever break up - so I’m not looking to be hounded at from that perspective.)

Just looking to see if anyone can unpick this trail of events and maybe help give me an insight in to what he’s thinking. I do plan on speaking to him at some point about what I’ve found, but wanted to offload on here first!

Thanks!

[Sleepyhead19]

I’ve been in your situation. My ex is moving out shortly. He can’t bring himself to commit.
If the birthday proposal card was special, he’d have remembered where it was. He didn’t want to give it to you. Time to give up before you waste more time with someone who doesn’t value you.

[Spanielmadness]

My DP and I purchased a ring together and agreed we would be married. He wanted to propose. Fine.
A couple of weeks later he got down on one knee while I was watching the telly. Was perfectly fine with me. The intention is the important thing and is just as valid as a proposal on a mountain with a choir of doves!

I told him I wanted to get the church booked by X date and he got it organised, we went to meet the vicar and booked the date. If he wants to do it, he would have done by now.

[ImAShowPony]

Congratulations! It has taken a while but you have got there- and soon you'll be able to go public.
Take control of the wedding arrangements yourself though. Your wishes are valid and DF seems to delay and prevaricate and you can't leave a wedding until the last minute, even a small one.

[Robin2323]

Remember:
If you're good enough to live with - you're good enough to marry.

Wasn't asking the father's permission/ blessing something to do with money back in the day? When a girl would be given a 'Dowery' for her husband upon marriage.
Either way another 2 years???

We i is either he wants to marry you or not.

Get it booked within the next 6 months. It's the marriage not the wedding.

[hellsbellsmelons]

Well I'm very pleased it's all worked out OP.
Yes it's outdated but it's also respectful and it's what he wants to do and there is nothing wrong with that.
My DD wants her BF to ask me for permission.
Hell no!! It's not up to me who she marries and I've told her this.
I've no idea why she thinks it's a good idea but there you have it. And she's only 21!

[FoodWoes]

Why are you sitting around waiting for him to do it?
If you wnat to get married ask him.
If he says no you know where you stand.

[FoodWoes]

Re read the whole thread.

I guess congratulations are in order but it still seems to me like he's not that into it.

[Nowisthemonthofmaying]

Congratulations! But I agree waiting two years is completely bonkers, especially as you don't want a big shebang. I organised my (big, white, country house multi-day) wedding in three months, its really not as difficult as some people like to make out.

Two years is a long time and anything could happen. Not to put a downer on things, but I've lost a few family members this year and it's really made me realise that life is short and that if something is really important to you, don't put it off for no good reason!

[anothernamejeeves]

He's asked yet it's still not official...,

You don't seem to be getting this

[CoffeeThroughAnIvDrip]

As outdated as speaking to the father is, I'm quite pleased that he wants to do it, as it really will mean a lot to my dad. It's not so much about DP asking for 'permission', but more about respect and him doing something he knows my dad will appreciate. I'm not going to hold it against him or stand in the way of him doing something that will make the pair of them happy. I love my DP and my I love my dad, he was a single parent to me and I'm his only child so we have a strong bond - I have a lot of respect for the both of them and it would be lovely for them to share that moment together.

Of course my end goal is to be married, however, this thread was started regarding proposals/engagement. I didn't come on here to ask 'why aren't we married right this very second!?!'. I wanted us to be engaged, to take that next step towards getting married, and we've done that now, so I'm happy. I understand waiting a year or two until the wedding may seem bizarre to some of you, but it really doesn't to me. It's a time frame we both decided upon, it's not been dictated by DP, if I had an issue with it, I would've addressed it with him last night.

FWIW, if a man had come on here asking if he was BU to expect his girlfriend to drop the idea of wearing a wedding dress, to say no to having a wedding in a small venue close to their home that she likes, etc, I'm sure posters would tell him that his girlfriend is within her rights to have a small wedding and shouldn't have to have a quick registry office do if she doesn't want to.

DP isn't wrong for wanting to wear a nice suit, to have our DC's included in the ceremony in a venue we fell in love with, surrounded by some close friends and family. While I have long said good bye to my past views of a huge white wedding and would be ok with popping to the local registry office, I of course would still absolutely love to wear a wedding dress, and celebrate with my nearest and dearest on a day that will hopefully be full of love and laughter in a setting we both like, while I hopefully look the most beautiful I ever have.

I'm content with where we're at and the things we've spoken about. I appreciate the way we've gone about things isn't the norm and sounds weird to some of you, but hey, how boring would life be if we all had exactly the same stories to tell?

[karala]

I am baffled by people who have a home and children together and yet can't just agree that they're going to get married on a given day. Just talk to him

[CrystalShark]

Literally every aspect of getting married beyond going to the register office for a statutory ceremony with a couple of witnesses is about tradition and cultural norms, so I don’t know why anyone gets so prickly about the idea of OP’s boyfriend asking her father. If you wear a white dress, or even just a pretty dress rather than jeans and t shirt, if you wear rings, if you change names, if you allow a parent to walk with you down the aisle, if you have a party afterwards, those are all completely unnecessary traditions that mean nothing beyond the emotional meaning people attach to them. Being married is a simple legal process, the rest is window dressing. So if you’re gonna get hung up on OP’s boyfriend speaking to her father first I suggest you don’t ever attend a wedding as you’ll be frothing at all of the other superfluous traditions!

[Sagradafamiliar]

Yeah I don't see the outrage about the 'asking the father/getting the nod off him' aspect either when marriage is entirely misogynistic anyway, historically. Everything about it is about the woman being something of financial value to men and being handed over from one to another.

[Sron]

We didn't do any of that stuff, @CrystalShark. Jeans, no rings, two witnesses, then off for a fabulous lunch. I have been to a hell of a lot of weddings, and fortunately, the more anachronistic stuff is being weeded out -- for instance, I haven't been to a wedding where the bride changed her name since 1998, wearing white seems to be dying off, and I can't remember the last time the bride was 'given away' by her father. Either both parents, or (more commonly, in my experience) the bride and groom walking in together seems to have become the norm.

And I think 'getting the nod off the father' is actually fairly hilarious in this case, as it's not just tokenistic, it's like shutting the stable door several generations after the horse has bolted. 'So, you know your daughter, the woman I've had three children with without asking for your blessing? Are you OK with me marrying her? Oh, good.'

[RoseQuartzGlow]

I find it really strange that you e agreed to get married, agreed on the sort of wedding you’re going to have, have children but now expect a special proposal. What’s the point when he already knows the answer.
I also think he isn’t sure he wants to get married.

[CoffeeThroughAnIvDrip]

I didn't expect a special proposal @RoseQuartzGlow have you read the thread at all?! It was DP who WANTED to propose. I've been saying for absolutely ages that he doesn't have to propose, nor did I want a big deal made out of it....

[CoffeeThroughAnIvDrip]

@Sron I've no idea what kind of people you know.. but every single wedding I've seen posted on Facebook/Instagram and even the ones I've attended over the last few years have all had the bride wearing the traditional white, all have changed their last names, and have been given away by their dad. My step sister who got married two years ago was walked down the aisle by my dad and her own dad, she had one on each side of her!


So yeah, not sure I believe anything is being 'weeded' out to be honest with you. Perhaps just the select few people in your social circle are doing things a bit different, but the vast majority of the world are still doing things exactly the same.

[Sron]

My social circle isn't 'select', though. I'm not from the UK originally, and have moved around a lot, so these weddings have involved people from the UK, Switzerland, France, the US, South Africa, India, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Portugal and Ireland. Some of them are subsequent marriages, which I assume means people think about the inherent weirdness of an adult being 'given away' by anyone, or arbitrarily changing your name depending on who you're currently married to.

[CoffeeThroughAnIvDrip]

Meh. People are gonna do what they wanna do.
If brides want to hire a make up artist to make them look amazing while they wear their gorgeous, white dress and are walked down the aisle by the man that raised them, what's so wrong with that?

You can nitpick it and pull it apart, and say how misogynistic it all is, or how outdated elements of weddings are, but the short of it is that it's what a lot of women want from their day, and if it makes them happy, their partners happy and their families happy, then just be happy for them!

[ReturnofSaturn]

About time you got what YOU want OP.

You said you'd be very happy with just popping to the registry office or having a small wedding.
Well that doesn't take two years.
You don't need more stalling.

[Sagradafamiliar]

You do seem to know quite a progressive group of people, though Sron. As long as I've been here in the UK, weddings have all been quite traditional. Even keeping one's own surname would be seen as very modern, in 1998 it would've probably been thought of as quite radical.

[CoffeeThroughAnIvDrip]

By 'small' wedding, we're still looking at saving/spending around £4000-£5000. With three DC's and still generally wanting money each month to enjoy life and do things, it will take some time to save up that money.

I'm perfectly okay with this situation. We both decided it. I've said this over and over now.

Thanks for all your replies, but my initial question regarding finding the card has now been solved. So I now longer need this thread anymore!

Take care everyone!

[Dollywilde]

I haven't been to a wedding where the bride changed her name since 1998, wearing white seems to be dying off, and I can't remember the last time the bride was 'given away' by her father. Either both parents, or (more commonly, in my experience) the bride and groom walking in together seems to have become the norm.

Funny, because I’m friends with a bunch of liberal feminista types (mostly all met at uni studying politics etc) - we’re all early 30s and I’d say 90% of us were given away, 50% have changed names and absolutely all wore a white outfit of some description (and I’m including a couple of lesbian weddings in that). Just goes to show how echo chambers work.

Congratulations OP and good luck wedding planning!

[SallyWD]

I don't agree with others saying he doesn't want to marry you. Maybe it just didn't seem like the right moment on your actual birthday. Maybe he had a better idea of when to propose. If it was me I'd just sit him down and say very calmly "Look, we've been talking about marriage for years. We have the ring. Please be honest - do you still want to marry me or have you changed your mind?". Try and discuss it in a very non-enotional, matter of fact way and see what he says.

[SallyWD]

Oops, missed the update! I'll read the whole thread now! Congratulations!