Are you married to an investment banker?

[LoveMarigold]

If so I'd love to hear some wisdom from you. (NC as some people know my username on here).

I married an investment banker (VP in a well known top city investment bank) last year and we are trying for a family. All great and lovely atm.

I am extremely alert to the oft cited reasons why some couples' marriages crack or fail- childcare, no time for each other, uneven distribution of chores, no time away from parenting, long working hours etc, the list goes on.

We are keen to put things in place and be alert to these risks, and manage things as best we can under our specific circumstances. Obviously the massive pro is his high salary which should increase, and I am extremely grateful and aware how lucky we are. The cons are the hours, and lack of time together.

For context I earn a good (normal) salary and teach in an adult education college 3 days pw and do 1-1 tutoring from home the other two days.

If you've been married to a city banker at this level you will know the very specific culture of long hours and possible impact on weekends, holidays etc. At the moment he works until about 10-11pm on an average day, with the occasional early finish, and occasional manic few days of all hours when a project is finishing. We have obviously spoken about our future but I would love to hear other opinions.

Wives / husbands of investment bankers- What advice if any would you have in hindsight to a newly married couple starting out and hoping to start a family and stay in love / strong in our marriage?

I highly doubt we’re talking about even a 6 figure salary at VP level. More likely it’ll be in the high 5s, possibly very low 6.

Hmm VP, I don’t deal with VP level clients, but my ‘MD’s’ are usually up to £800- 1M all in. The next levels is crazy, £2m+ Beyond that, I’ve seen £7m a year and then options on top. It’s the stock that makes the difference.

However not many get long at that level and they are waiting for a tap on the shoulder.

It also matters what you’re doing. You mange the money and the deals, the slice is bigger.

The ‘million pound’ bankers are thick on the ground.

I suppose the moral of it all is “you can’t have it all”. Something has to give. In our case (married young in the 70s) to a man who worked full time in a factory whilst going to school two nights a week and a Saturday morning in order to progress a career in engineering/manufacturing; I saw the writing on the wall that it would be me that would do the domestic grind so stated my case before having children that I was not prepared to work full time and bring up the family. We both agreed as a team that this was not what we would do, we chose for me to be a SAHM.

Forty years on with hindsight I don’t regret that decision because it worked well for us. “Something that gave” was my place in the world of work. I was lonely a lot of the time during the time our ds2 were at school whilst husband’s career took off after finishing his further education. He climbed to the top in his chosen career which enabled us to climb the property ladder and have a comfortable life whilst supporting both ds2 throughtheir further education. He appreciated and valued my contribution to enable his carreer to fly at the expense of mine. In our later years once the kids flew the nest, I was able to travel with him as ‘trailing spouse’ and lived a jet-setting life as he worked in an interesting and rewarding global role. He retired last year and together we both after prudent saving and planning are enjoying a comfortable life together.

We both valued each other’s contribution to our family set up. Both our adult children tell us they had a fantastic childhood. Neither of them remember father not being there a lot of the time. Sadly one of our children has told me they won’t have children (by choice) because they feel they couldn’t give their children what they had. The other has recently had their first child at the age of 40 as they both have interesting jobs and neither was prepared to sacrifice their career. They will be outsourcing their childcare once maternity leave is over at huge expense but I respect their decision. They both share equally the domestic burden. Husband and I are very impressed at what a good equal team they are as they grapple with new parenthood together. Neither of them is interested in climbing the corporate ladder as it world upset their equilibrium.

As someone who is now retired, I would say that none of it is worth it. Money, material possessions, nannies, private schools.

Lack of time together is not good for relationships and lack of time for children is not good for them.

Both I and my ex used to work incredibly long hours and I look back now and think what a waste of time and effort that was.

Another point to consider.

Many people, no matter how hard they work, don't make it to the top of the ladder. Many also face burnout and redundancy. Look at the statistics.

My advice would be to keep your job, even if it is part time, as you are planning to do. Don't assume he will necessarily make it to the top and save as if there was a redundancy looming.

Dh and I both have corporate careers and have both been through the scenarios above, as have many colleagues. We do spend too much (so not following our own advice here) but I worry a lot.

I would not recommend the hours your Dh works for long term health and happiness, especially with a family.. It isn't worth it or necessary long term.

It’s true there is a massive difference between a £300k a year banker and a £1m a year banker.

A £300k a year banker is a nice house in zone 3 or 4 with a big mortgage unless they got on the ladder early and managed to get onto zone 2. It’s 2 kids in private school or just as likely catchment for naice state schools plus copious amounts of tutors. 3 kids in private only from 11 and not at all for 4 kids. It’s 3 holidays a year, long haul at Xmas, skiing in Feb and Europe via easyJet in the summer. The long haul is economy unless they’re a frequent flier or have enough miles to upgrade. It’s an aupair or a cleaner 3 times a week plus gardener and a regular babysitter. But ultimately it’s the parents, well the one working less,doing the normal house stuff.

A £1m a year banker is a different ball game. There’s a full time live in help with a live out for the helps days off. It’s The Portland plus months of maternity nurses and always bringing help on holiday,

All kids, however many there are, are in private with intensive coaching from day 1. Holidays are always business class and 5* deluxe. Home is zone 1 or 2 with a house in the country, a cottage (mansion) in France, Mallorca, Italy, Ibiza or maybe a ski chalet. 40th birthday parties are taking 20 friends to a hotel in Greece for 5 days all expenses paid having hired the hotel and shipped in DJ’s from Ibiza.

Obviously this is a total generalisation but from my experience that’s the difference

I work in the City. In IB world/the wider City, something like 2/3 marriages where the man is senior ends in divorce. So for the majority, the intersection between the money and the marriage typically goes a bit like this:

Below £100k they're right in it with you in the marriage both mentally and physically but working round the clock because that's what is expected ,

£100k to £250k, they're not really in it with you at home physically because they can see that the really big bucks are around the corner but are very grateful that you're picking up all the home stuff (it's usually in this salary bracket that the woman stops working) so they're mentally there with you

Between £250k and £500k, they begin to get less grateful (i.e. become both physically and less available to the wife) as usually the woman long stopped working and this is when the era of the gilded cage begins as to take shape.

£500k-£1m the ego has well and truly landed. They're out partying with the young girls in their 20s in a bar in Rio/New York and the wife is cleaning up baby sick. Weirdly though this usually when they don't actually have to work as many hours as they did when they were earning £100k but the wife doesn't know this so while they could be more physically available they're well and truly mentally checked out.

Over £1m and they don't usually won't go in for the quick shags anymore on a night out as they're much more concerned about losing their assets in a divorce.

Believability- that’s spookily accurate

You’ve had some good advice, op.

Being cynical, make sure that all finances are in joint names (including pensions, savings and properties) and that you have full access to and knowledge about every account. If the worst happens you will at least get a decent divorce settlement.

Also at £300k the wife might still work. If she’s a lawyer she might have gone from a magic circle firm to a local high street firm 3 days a week, an accountant might be working for a local charity, a teacher might be keeping her hand in a couple of days a week and a marketing person might be freelancing or having set up something with a friend but they’ll still feel that the extra cash is useful and they’re not totally reliant on the husband.

At £1M any idea of paid work is long gone as they’re just too busy. They’ll be flogging tables for the annual ladies lunch for a chosen charity or being run off their feet dealing with doing up the house which involves flying to Italy to check out tiles and liaising with numerous interior designers before concentrating entirely on finding the best tutors all the children through the 4+, 7+, 11+ and 13+ exams because failure to get into the school of the moment just isn’t an option

I am a VP in an IB and it’s not that senior and nor do I earn the type of salary discussed here so VP level might be more senior in other banks or I am very underpaid and should moan to my boss. The more senior you get, the more flexibility. There can be a lot of nights out with clients and travel, but even the MDs where I work leave at relatively decent time and might go back online later from home working around family life. In my work place it’s usually the juniors who stay until 10-11 pm.

I worked for investment banks/stockbrokers from the mid 1980s until late 1990s. Places vary a lot. Most get in early, certainly 6.30am, possibly 7am at the latest. I do remember evenings though at one place with the trading floor being pretty much deserted by 6.30pm, apart from some men reading the newspaper. I used to tease a few of them about hanging on at work to miss the evening routine of getting kids to bed.

Corporate finance was different at a couple of places I worked - then they would do all-nighters if a deal was happening. Day to day normally I don't know what their hours were like. I don't remember the directors staying that late either. They were probably in the pub or restaurant, possibly still working in some capacity, or telling their wives that.

'Investment banker' is such a catch-all phrase. In fact, I've never known anyone call themselves an investment banker. They'd either say they were in sales, or trading, or an analyst, or currency/forex trader or something more specific.

I think this is why Yurt initially said VP isn't that high up. Most of the banks I've worked weren't American, at least initially (after being taken over they were and the culture changed), so VP, SVP etc weren't the titles used. In some ways I found the American firms wanted more of a pound of flesh, but then we'd gone from 2 hour lunch breaks down the pub in the 80s so anything would have seemed more high powered than that.

I think traders seemed to get out the door earlier, not long after the market closed, but were in very early. I knew one that used to catch a 5am or perhaps earlier train in from Southend.

OP, he might not necessarily have to work silly hours so I wouldn't worry until it happens.

Agreed. Totally depends what he does and how his career progresses.

Lizzie, generally when people refer to IBing they mean Corporate Finance. I'm assuming that's what the OP is meaning but perhaps not. The long hours and selling ones soul is certainly more a CF situation in my experience. But you are right. If someone says they work at an investment bank, it could mean anything.

A £1m a year banker is a different ball game. There’s a full time live in help with a live out for the helps days off. It’s The Portland plus months of maternity nurses and always bringing help on holiday

Rubbish. I deal with these people’s finance and by the time they are spending like that they are WELL beyond £1m. You’ll be surprised how many people earn £1m in the city.

I have clients worth much more and they don’t spend like that.

Just under 19,000 people in the UK earn >£1m per year, that’s 0.03% of the population. So I do not believe the UK is flooded with super high earnings IBs. Though I accept that over £1m is infinite so those 19k people could be on £10m, £100m etc

Fucking hell Blingygolightly. You're not wrong but I dont6 like seeing it in black and white.

Okhitmewithit I completely agree. Earning £1m a year does not stretch to what people seem to think it does. Factor in tax and that all your luxuries are coming out of net income and no one earning £1m is feeling wealthy in the South East. Comfortable? Yes. Hiring half a dozen staff and buying multiple homes in prone locations? Having a laugh.

I do not believe the UK is flooded with super high earnings IBs

No, but have you seen 19k people in one room?

Have you looked at how many people remain in that group for 3 years, 5 years.

Does that include stock? Nope. Only LTIPS go through PAYE. Plenty of other ways of being paid MULTIPLE millions a year.

People are totally mislead as to what people high up in financial services ACTUALLY get.

‘Earning’ £1M and a £5M package are 2 different things. Anyone know what an EFERB is?

Things are not going so well for me.
It was ok with our first dd but somehow in the course of having 3 we started to not feel like a team anymore.

Of course the hours haven’t helped but i can’t hold that against him. it’s more that when he is here he doesn’t make the most of it and doesn’t take opportunities to be wit the kids etc.

It is also annoying that if he needs to be back at a certain time for something he needs to do, he can miraculously manage it, but if I need him to be back because I want/need to go out, it’s not doable.

I wish I’d been firmer about him doing stuff at the weekends like reading story/doing bath but you can’t force someone. Of course since it’s 99% me doing bedtime then the kids then don’t want him to - he doesn’t persevere but walks away.

Remember that generally the high salary/bonus etc can be gone in a flash so definitely as a PP said, treat every bonus if it’s the last and be sensible with it.

So it does put the pressure on, but you will be fine if you’re both committed to making the effort and prioritising family.

@itsabongthing

It does get better as kids get older, they communicate on a more adult level and the ‘care’ aspect that little ones require that men who aren’t around enough to know how to give - that aspect goes away.

However - on the SAHP’s side - I found it useful to give up on resentment and expectations. I don’t assume H can do/be somewhere. I plan help with that assumption, so that I can still have life and - say - go out when I need or want to.
I also don’t manage what he does do with the kids. Just decided one can’t be nudged or forced. And life is too short.
I know how quicky the childhood will pass - I so chose to enjoy every moment of it.
Even if I am the only mom with them on a sunday in a pool, surrounded by dads/kids. While H is at home working.
It’s his loss - the way he structures his life. But I get to do so much with them that I enjoy.

It is only possible because I can outsource the more mundane. Otherwise - i’d go crazy

talktoo, I've never heard anyone say they work in 'investment banking' (unless they're a pretentious wanker perhaps talking to someone that doesn't work in finance). They might say they work for an investment bank but that could be in any role.

I've worked for one large UK stockbroker that was taken over by a large American bank, a large UK investment bank taken over by a large US investment bank, a third large investment bank and numerous smaller brokers, UK and international. In none of them has investment banking ever generally meant corporate finance. People would say they work in corporate finance or the corporate finance department. Perhaps an American would say they work in M&A, I don't know, but investment banking in my 35 years of working in finance has never generally been the term for corporate finance.

Yes that is a good way of looking at it and I have also learnt to do this.
I have learnt how strong I am and I have done lots with the (3) kids by myself including taking them away for little trips. Just managing bedtime by myself for all these years! Eldest is 11 now (they are all girls) and in some ways it’s easier but in other ways they are picking up more on how emotionally unavailable he is, and through that, and us doing stuff as a 4 instead of a 5, it has gradually become more like we are a little team of 4 rather than Dh and I feeling like a team.

We also have the added issue now that work is not going well and the bonuses have stopped. We have the long working hours and a large property but not the funds to outsource everything so consequently any ‘spare’ time at the weekends he spends doing jobs round the house or garden.

We are both in extremely demanding careers and long hours. Both work in an international arena where either of us is abroad as well. We are able to do this as our company has a 100% flexible working policy and devalues presenteeism. For us we don't have the concept of 9 to 5 as we intersperse work in segments throughout day and night and split shift school runs. . My husband is VP of Sales and I work in the city as an exec.

We run a tight ship and are extremely organised and make it work but don't stress if a few balls are dropping now and then.