So fed up with DH's hoarding

[AwdBovril]

I'm absolutely fed up with DH's hoarding. DD is 6 & she's starting too... she will occasionally consent to get rid of a few things, usually after a tantrum, with some (quite a lot of) encouragement from me, but DH then seems to feel the need to "gatekeep" every item that is destined for the charity shop or bin. He often puts at least a quarter back.

DD has a double bedroom, lucky her. She's been asking me, for the last 3 years, for a sibling. I'd like another child, as would DH. However, we're a low income family & as things are, we have no room for another - DD's room is full, literally, of her stuff. An actual mountain of toys. PILs are unhelpful in that they regularly bring her more, I've asked them not to as we're struggling for space, trying to downsize, blah blah blah. It went in one ear & out the other. Every week, more toys arrive, & as usual Everything Must Be Kept. Their house is worse (more years to accumulate stuff, & no restraining influence).

I have explained to DD & DH very clearly that although I would love another child, it is not happening unless a) the house is kept tidier, b) they both significantly declutter, & c) that it has to happen in the next year. I'm late 30s & disabled. DH says I'm being unreasonable. I pointed out that he promised to stop hoarding before we got married, & again before we had a child; he hasn't. I feel like I was tricked into it, (although I didn't say this, as it would be unnecessary & cruel).

I wasn't brought up like this. I feel like the house is not only untidy but (in places) filthy. Some spots of certain rooms haven't been vacuumed for years because they're "his" & he has a great big pile of stuff that I'm not allowed to touch. I found a hand knitted woollen jumper of mine with 2 holes in it today because I can't clean properly & we have some kind of clothes beetle.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't married him. And just typing that makes me feel so sad. I don't know what to do. Except for the hoarding / untidiness, he's a good man, I think.

Vetinari thanks for the standard deviation link. I'd seen the images previously & sort of been able to score the rooms we do have, most are a 4, living room is currently a 3 although it's been worse, I lost it a while ago & read both of them the riot act about it. It's interesting to kniw that a non-hoarder would score at around 1-2, so I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill, or any of the other things he usually accuses me of. The cupboard & downstairs toilet which DH uses for storage are both a 9/10, albeit one of them is slightly more organised as it contains his beloved collections, which are boxed up.

DH has started to try to sort out some of his stuff but he's at work now. I did hear him stamping about upstairs before he set off for work, I thought he was just being a grumpy twat but he was trying to go through stuff.

I'm going through a load of my stuff too, & being pretty ruthless. I'm not sentimental about objects, never have been. I've sorted about 90% of my books to go. It's a show of support for him, so he can see I'm willing to declutter & I'm not expecting him to do something I wouldn't do. It also means that if (when) DD & I do have to leave, it won't be so bloody difficult. I'm not having him taking over the space though, I'm going to put things into it that currently don't have a home. My things.

That Help For Hoarders site looks like it could be useful, thanks. They have a discussion board. I've seen threads on MN before about decluttering, but is there a support thread for the families of people who hoard?

Good luck, wishing you strength to do this.

Robin2323 you are so right in if I gave mums stuff away it means I didn’t love her.
Although my DH (only child) hoarding is not as serious if that’s the right word as the OP, his dad died 25 years ago and he’s still got jumpers, coats, shoe shine kits and other paraphernalia belonging to him. His mum died 4 years ago and the same along with toiletry bags, sewing baskets ect. I think he feels like it’s all he’s got left of them.
We moved to a bigger house and I thought oh good we’ll be able to spread things out a bit and disperse the clutter but no it just gave more space to fill.
DS has about 5 full bags of letters that he’ll ‘get round to opening’ when he gets time unless it looks like a bill. When he makes a start he’ll read everyone minutely shuffle them about into piles for throwing out (about 2 letters) and keeping the rest. After about an hour they go back into the still enormous pile.
Our DS was busily tidying away things in our kitchen because he said he wanted it to look like all his friend’s houses nice and tidy.
I am mortified when anyone calls to our house and I always say excuse the mess I’m doing a bit of a tidy out but that’s how it looks everyday. The best about it is DS has all his books lined up meticulously in size and when buying a new one examines it to make sure it has no damages.
My DS says there’s not a problem so it needs tidying up and he’ll get round to it when he has time. I’m gobsmacked when he sees a small stain on the floor and is busybodying about with the cleaning cloth not seeing all the c..p around him.

And why was he at all trying to go through stuff before he had to go to work?. He is really not willing or able to deal with his hoarding problems by seeking specialist help.

Is the downstairs toilet useable or is it full of his hoard?.

You clearing your own stuff will have no effect either behaviour or hoard whatsoever. Your energies would also be better employed planning your exit from this relationship.

I don’t wan to scaremonger but it really is a safeguarding issue.
The situation you describe, if deteriorates even a bit, can been taken as evidence of child neglect because your home can be deemed unsafe. Social services do not remove children from homes that are just untidy or unclean but filth, mould, piles of stuff that could topple, a home that is so full that cleaning is not possible.....these are things that can, and do, bring about the removal of children.
You are clearly not at that stage but this needs to stop. You would be able to google and find news stories about social services involvement with sufferers of this condition. Would this perhaps cause your husband to wake up? As he is a loving father, this could motivate him perhaps.....?

"I have laid it out straight today - which I never have before - that I'm prepared to leave him over this, if he doesn't sort himself out. But it's not going to be an instant fix, I know that, it's a major MH issue. Best case scenario, it will be a few months. Realistically, it could be a year, or more. But I expect to see proper, continuing progress. His MH issues do not take priority over mine. Or my physical health".

Re your earlier comment re timescales both lengths of time you mention here are basically unrealistic and completely overoptimistic. This hoarding of your H's started with his parents and started with him in his own childhood. Realistically it could be never, he may well never want to address his mental health problems associated with hoarding and your DD is currently at least going down that same road. He supports her in her hoarding behaviours. He is not wanting to address this at all and makes excuses for not going to the doctors. Sadly here your only real option going forward is to leave him. Your own mental and physical health will continue to go downhill if you remain within that house as will your DDs.

What do you think she is herself learning about relationships from the two of you as her parents?.

Is this something that social services could support you with? If the house is so bad that the hoard makes your asthma worse, would social services support you by writing a letter of support for you and DD for social housing?

100% agree with Atilla.

OP you are still trying to fix this. This is how he has always thought and lived and he will continue to do so.

Stop trying to tackle the hoard - he needs to tackle his HEAD......he may never get there.

The only person in control here is you. YOU can stop the inter generational dysfunctional from PIL to DH to your DC. She will be deeply emotionally affected by this socially and mentally it will cripple her long term. She is also being blamed often by you.

Pick her up, move her out and give her (and yourself) the peaceful, safe, healthy, joyful life you both deserve.

Words are not working with your DH. He is either unable or unwilling to take responsibility for the blight he has caused on all your lives and living conditions.

Maybe move out for 6/12 months whilst he addresses it. This ACTION might be enough to get him started and it would give you and your DD some much needed respite.

I've spoken with the council about getting on the social housing waiting list; apparently there is actually some locally (just not a lot). I would probably need to move into private rented first though, which would cost more. They also gave me the number of a domestic abuse line, which I'll call later when I've stopped crying.

I checked & apparently we could separate domestically but not legally - i.e. live separately but still be in a relationship, & it would not affect any claim for benefits as separate households.

I've also spoken with the doctor & got an appointment as I'm horribly afraid I'm sliding back into depression. I do have a history of depression, I was on ADs for a few years but have been off them for well over a decade.

Sorting through my stuff - TBH I tend to tidy, clean etc when I'm stressed. It's a displacement activity. It drives DH mad, I usually do it when he's out. It's useful at the moment though because, as I mentioned earlier, if I do end up leaving, there'll be less to pack when I go. What was about a hundred novels on my bookshelf has been reduced to a dozen. I'm KMing my wardrobe next.

"I checked & apparently we could separate domestically but not legally - i.e. live separately but still be in a relationship, & it would not affect any claim for benefits as separate households".

Would you not want to separate from him in a legal sense as well?. Do you still want to be in a relationship with him and in turn his hoarding?. What is in this relationship for you that is worth having?. With reference to one of your earlier comments re what you get out of this you said he makes you laugh. That is really the barest of bare minimal requirements for a relationship here.

The hoard to him is first and paramount in his life; you and your DD are a long way down that list even if either of you are on it. I actually doubt very much that you and DD moving out will make any difference to his hoarding; he will use that space to further fill with items.

Wow you are dynamic - got loads done. That’s the role model that your DD needs.

If you have a shift in your thinking and the focus is all about both DD’s and your MH and physical health you will know what needs to be done. Don’t waste another minute of her childhood swamped in this downward spiral. Well done. KOKO.

You are making some progress here, keep going. Focus on your DD and your needs, not his and his hoard.

AttilaTheMeerkat - that's what I want to see. If the threat of DD & I moving out isn't enough to make him act, I'll do it. And if our moving out isn't enough to make him act, then we obviously aren't ever going to be important enough for him. And I'll divorce him.

another20 - thankyou. I feel about as dynamic as a slug right now. It was anger that did it! I need to be more careful with the clothes though... I've gone through them before & regretted getting rid of the odd thing. At least I'm not crying now though.

Thanks AttilaTheMeerkat. I'm trying. It's hard. I really thought I had a good man with DH. I never thought I'd be in this position.

You're doing great.
As for the anger, sometimes you / we / every one needs to stamp their feet occasionally.
Anger is actually healthy. Resentment is not.
You have every right to your anger.
Clearing clutter is often best done with tears pouring down your face.
It's a release of emotions and a release of rubbish.
Your energy will lift.
And as your energy lifts you will start to feel confident and stronger.
I have been so inspired by this thread I'm half way round the kitchen cleaning and de-cluttering the cupboards as I go :)

Op, to an outsider, it couldn't be clearer that he doesn't plan to change. Is it really worth the effort you'd have to put in even to get him to a doctors appointment?

I'm afraid I'm with the other poster who said your DH is unlikely to change. I know that's hard to hear but my DM is a full blown hoarder and nothing anyone has said and done has changed it.

She is a fabulous mum and I loved her dearly but their house is almost a no go zone for me now as I find it so hard to be there.

My dad has learnt to live with it but I am ultra tidy. I hate mess and clutter and living like my parents would be a nightmare for me.

I'm sorry I can't be more positive.

DH's hoarding was a major factor in my leaving him - he was abusive in lots of ways, but the clutter & mess was what I couldn't bear on a day-to-day basis.

He keeps everything except rubbish that might actually rot & smell. All envelopes, greetings cards, gift tags (tucked into the back of the present), all presents, even if unsuitable/ill-fitting/broken, some unwrapped but unopened/unused presents going back years, tickets, empty boxes (shoeboxes to the ceiling in one of the rooms), unopened post, magazines (piles & piles of these going back 30 years), newspapers, clothes, travel brochures, all flat surfaces covered in piles of stuff, several rooms unusable, no rooms completely clear of clutter.

I am apparently "ruthless & unsentimental" for throwing things away - I have certain things that I would never part with, as they are of great value to me, but everything else I pass on once it is no longer of use or no longer wanted.

He says he hates the mess & that more storage is the answer - the house is stuffed with furniture/storage already.

I say less stuff is the answer.

Now living alone in a small uncluttered rented house - just bliss! - while he accumulates stuff in the soon-to-be-ex-marital home.

He goes to his parents' cluttered house (his mum is the hoarder) & thinks it is awful, but cannot see he has exactly the same problem

Never give a hoarder access to more storage room, they'll just fill it and need more.
It is a mental illness and very very difficult to "cure". Sadly you have to put your own and especially your children's well-being first. Children learn behaviours from their parents and the last thing you want is for a child to become a hoarder themselves.

Please take your child and you out of this terrible environment as soon as possible. When you have done so your dh can demonstrate that he knows he has a problem and he can get help. If he can address this and get the house cleared to a decent standard, acceptable for your own medical condition, then perhaps you could give it another try. Frankly the odds are against it working, sorry to say.

Sad for him, but much sadder for your child and you.

You need to live somewhere you can keep clean and well -ventilated. Otherwise your asthma is likely to become more disabling. There is also a high risk of your daughter being affected by asthma or other allergies. Yours and your daughters' health really should not be sacrificed on the altar of crap!

@PussGirl - that all sounds so familiar. The hoarder I lived with had hardly any free space in his house at all. The living room was relatively clear, but almost everywhere else was rammed.

Two rooms were completely inaccessible as it was impossible to open the doors. He kept the boxes for everything he bought, including really large items like the washing machine and tumble dryer "in case he moved". Open any cupboard and stuff would fall out, and if I wanted a bath I had to clear about two dozen pot plants out of it first.

I'm not a hoarder, and do not have any experience of hoarding. What could be the consequences of clearing stuff out bit by bit when he's at work?

I had a doctor's appointment this afternoon & had a chat with her about this. She's adjusted 2 of my medications, 1 of which is apparently useful for depression. So that's a plus.

DH & I had another chat after he came home from work. I told him that the GP has confirmed that actually, there would probably be psychological help for someone in his / our situation (he was convinced there wouldn't be). And that he would be entitled to access it, which rather took the wind out of his sails. He's not being quite so much of a twat about things this evening. He's not usually an arse, only when he thinks someone is trying to railroad him. Some of his collection I don't mind - he's a music fanatic, but it's the sheer volume of everything else, the dirt, the lack of organisation, the fact that he can't actually access it anyway because it's stuck in a cupboard under mountains of other crap & therefore to me it seems pointless in keeping any of it. He acknowledged I have a point, especially as regards my physical health. I have told him, again, that I'm serious about what I said before, & that I had said as much to the doctor. He knows it's not an idle threat. I think he's worried now. Good.

I am going to start ordering copy of any certificates I might need though. Just in case.

Hadalifeonce - I could possibly remove one or two things. But, not a lot, not often and, if he ever caught me he'd go ballistic. Major argument time. He did actually catch me in the act of chucking something of his out once, years ago. It totally wasn't worth the argument. He still refers to it occasionally. I understand it's a fairly normal reaction for a hoarder, like it's some kind of personal attack. It's things like this that tell me that, even though his hoarding may be less severe compared to hoarders on the TV documentaries, I know he has a real problem & I'm not just being picky. A normal person would just get over it or buy a replacement if it was something they actually used or needed.