So fed up with DH's hoarding

[AwdBovril]

I'm absolutely fed up with DH's hoarding. DD is 6 & she's starting too... she will occasionally consent to get rid of a few things, usually after a tantrum, with some (quite a lot of) encouragement from me, but DH then seems to feel the need to "gatekeep" every item that is destined for the charity shop or bin. He often puts at least a quarter back.

DD has a double bedroom, lucky her. She's been asking me, for the last 3 years, for a sibling. I'd like another child, as would DH. However, we're a low income family & as things are, we have no room for another - DD's room is full, literally, of her stuff. An actual mountain of toys. PILs are unhelpful in that they regularly bring her more, I've asked them not to as we're struggling for space, trying to downsize, blah blah blah. It went in one ear & out the other. Every week, more toys arrive, & as usual Everything Must Be Kept. Their house is worse (more years to accumulate stuff, & no restraining influence).

I have explained to DD & DH very clearly that although I would love another child, it is not happening unless a) the house is kept tidier, b) they both significantly declutter, & c) that it has to happen in the next year. I'm late 30s & disabled. DH says I'm being unreasonable. I pointed out that he promised to stop hoarding before we got married, & again before we had a child; he hasn't. I feel like I was tricked into it, (although I didn't say this, as it would be unnecessary & cruel).

I wasn't brought up like this. I feel like the house is not only untidy but (in places) filthy. Some spots of certain rooms haven't been vacuumed for years because they're "his" & he has a great big pile of stuff that I'm not allowed to touch. I found a hand knitted woollen jumper of mine with 2 holes in it today because I can't clean properly & we have some kind of clothes beetle.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't married him. And just typing that makes me feel so sad. I don't know what to do. Except for the hoarding / untidiness, he's a good man, I think.

Don’t discuss it with your 6 ear old child! Her room is your responsibiiity. Of course she doesn’t want to get rid of 75% of her stuff! You have to do it.

The issue in our house is the sheer volume of precious bits of paper that are generated by the kids: stories, "magazines", drawings, oldest DC even wants to keep the results of pen and paper games like Consequences and heads, bodies, feet. Having those tendencies myself I can understand his feelings but also obviously all that can't be kept.

I have a system where there is a box in the play room and a box in his bedroom. I regularly scoop up all the bits of paper on the floor, the table, etc, and put them in the box in the playroom. When that box is full I will throw it all away, so he needs to keep on top of it, getting rid of what he doesn't want and transferring what he does want to his bedroom box. If the bedroom box is full, he needs to get rid of some of that or he won;t be able to fit the stuff in he really wants to keep.

I don't know if that is helpful at all, obviously you have a bigger problem than just paper.

I lived with a hoarder years ago. There was always an excuse why he couldn't sort things out or throw them away, and he would throw tantrums even if I threw away rubbish or old newspapers. I was constantly falling over things and couldn't even keep most of my own stuff in the house as there was no room for it.

To cut a long story short, he wouldn't change, so I left. As far as I am aware, he is still the same.

OP, I'm afraid in the great majority of cases, hoarders don't change and you need to think of your own health and wellbeing.

Would your landlord be willing to intervene?

Hi OP, I am a hoarder who is currently trying hard to get over it after many years. I'm just reading a book you might find helpful - Buried In Treasures by David Tolin (there is a co author too) They have run a support programme in the US and it has been a revelation for me reading about reasons for hoarding. There are exercises to do but also sections with advice for family and friends which I think would be good for you. Basically they say pushing people doesn't work and they react as your DH has 'It's my stuff, how dare you' - instead you ask them questions, get them to see the benefits of changing. They do emphasise that hoarders have to want to change and this is key. But I would recommend it. Hope you get somewhere.

I'm perfectly happy to go to the doctor's about my depression - the thing is, I probably am depressed. I'm in pain quite a bit of the time, I'm on a lot of medication (re the disability). This has been acknowledged by the doctor previously but they said I probably can't have ADs as they'd reduce the effectiveness of one of my meds, which are already not fully controlling my health issues. (Hence the PIP award!)

House is a typical modern shoebox rental. 2 up 2 down plus a bathroom. No proper cupboards, no shelves. Landlord never inspects & we've had the bare minimum repairs done, often less than legal. Currently the gas certificate is expired again, by several months. No social housing locally.

Yes I agree it wasn't a great response from him but to be fair, he did probably feel like was backed into a corner a bit. I did confront him with an unpleasant truth he's not ready for, & an alternative he will dislike & can't control, i.e. me leaving.

What am I getting put of this relationship now? He's my carer, my friend, he makes me laugh. We have a lot in common, he makes me feel safe (my ex was appallingly abusive & DH knows all about it & has always been very sensitive about all of that). I've felt pretty crappy since DD was born - I had a horrid pregnancy & my health has never properly recovered, my condition has worsened & meds have had to be increased with all kinds of side effects, including very low libido, which DH never complains about. DH has picked me up numerous times, despite his own mobility issues, carried me home when I couldn't walk, sometimes to his own detriment.
My own family do virtually nothing for us - they live just a few miles away, are considerably better off than us, & we barely hear a peep from them. My mother has never babysat DD even once in her entire life. We have no practical support from them, & it's not for the lack of asking.

Despite all this, I do want another child. I feel that if I'm willing to put myself through it again, through the problems with PILs constantly visiting without calling first, with bagfuls of unwanted dirty crap we don't want or need & don't have room for, that I should have the right to lay down some ground rules.

Right. I'm afraid you're not going to like what I have to say, but I have been where you are and have a lot of compassion for your situation.

Your DH is not going to change. Ever. The chances are so slim that they are almost nil. It is a MH problem, but for some reason hoarding seems to deeply rooted and intractable that they almost never change. They also, and I am sorry to say this, get worse with age. So it will not only not get better, but it will get worse with every passing year.

You sound like you have reached the end of your rope. Depending on what type of person you are, living with a hoarder can make you feel irritated and exasperated all the way up to severely depressed and suicidal. I find that clutter and mess and stuff everywhere makes me really anxious, so obviously having a relationship with a hoarder is a nightmare for me. We met and moved in together really fast, I was 23 and he was 47, and I was pregnant inside 6 months. Otherwise I think I'd have realised and got out.

I did leave my ex partner over this, even though we had a child together. I wanted to protect DS from it and give him a normal home. There were other factors too but these were bound up inextricably with the hoarding; emotional abuse and financial abuse, he had a terror of being wasteful and hated when I had a deep bath, boiled the kettle, left a light on etc etc. He also had a power thing and any excuse to boss me around and lord it over me and he would take it. The tipping point was actually when I found his divorce papers from about 20 years before me, and all the unreasonable behaviours his young wife had cited were things he was doing with me, except he had got worse.

Since I left him his hoarding has got much, much worse. I go over once a week (DS is 10 now and we've been split 8 years) and help him by cleaning, making DS's room nice and generally stopping it from getting so bad that I wouldn't be able to allow DS round there. It is still horrendous and makes me really sad.

DS is now showing signs of hoarding, although his Dad continually (weekly) buys him loads of second hand toys and then brings them here, so that my small tidy rented cottage is filling up as well. I've told DS that we need to have a clear out but he is very resistant so I may take some of the advice on this thread and hide some stuff and then eventually charity shop it. There's not really anywhere to store things. It feels like even with 8 years apart, my exes hoarding is bleeding into my world and affecting it and spending every single Saturday doing the things that he won't do round his house isn't great either.

Sorry, this is really long winded. Basically, you need to think about how you could realistically leave him. I don't give this advice very often right off the bat, but hoarding is one of those things that will defeat the most cheerful and together people, and drag you down with it. Don't let that happen to you. Your daughter is still relatively young.
My biggest fear is that my son will grow up to be exactly like his Dad. I don't now what to do to prevent this or if I should even try. His Dad's dad is the same, so maybe I'm fighting a losing battle. But I am thankful every time I come home to my heated, clean, tidy house with space to move and live and roll on the floor playing cars with DS that I left my ex. Every single time.
Good luck, OP.

You need to decide how you want to live as it’s unlikely he’ll change

RhubarbTea thanks for your post. Have you tried sending them back to his dad's place the next time your DS goes? DH & I have had some success with this. It is the one area I have managed to make a breakthrough. As I convinced DH that as his parents were buying it, they couldn't reasonably object to storing it, & we explained to DD that she wasn't losing the items, they were just going back to PILs' house so she can play with them there (if they aren't, inevitably, buried).

I do think that this could be the one thing that could break us up. I told him so this morning. He quit smoking for me, I made him quit drinking cold turkey, for several months as he was drinking far too much almost every night & really getting in a bad way, but this... he has to do it & I don't know if he can.

I keep crying at the moment. I feel so pathetic. The thought of leaving him breaks my heart. I at least want to know that if I leave him over this, I can be confident that I tried everything I could. His parents couldn't be bothered - once he wasn't earning due to the breakdown, they slung him out. They used to take all his salary every month, so he'd spend it before they could see his bank balance on payday. They didn't need the money, except to fund their shopping habit. His self confidence is shockingly low. I've always, always made sure he had money each month, even when we were struggling to put food on the table.

Another thing that annoys me is that he says he'll do something, & then doesn't do it. He changes his mind / plans badly / runs out of time / forgets/ falls asleep mid afternoon, or whatever. I ask why, if I can help, & he just accuses me of trying to control him. He says he won't promise me anything any more, as he used to & I'd accuse him of breaking promises if he didn't keep them, so now he won't. I basically feel like I can't trust him to keep his word on anything, he does it or not but I'm not to expect him to complete specific tasks, even if he says he will.

I think I would rather live in s 1 bed flat with DD having shared care than live with your DH in that house

I think his hoarding will break you in the end. Your DD is becoming increasingly affected by her dad's hoarding and is doing similar behaviours. What do you want her to remember about her childhood?. She will not want to bring her friends back to her house due to the state of it.

You can only help your own self ultimately and you cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped. There is no indication that he is at all ready to accept he even has a problem here in relation to hoarding.

Am sorry to read that your ex was abusive but this man hoards and that is a huge problem for both of you. It is now recognised as a mental health disorder. Hoarders often procrastinate as well and can be perfectionistic too.

His parents were and remain abusive towards the two of you. He rescued you from your ex so you probably think that you owe him but you still do not owe him a relationship even now. Please do not even consider bringing another child into this chaotic atmosphere.

I would also consider contacting Shelter and the council about your current living situation as well because it sounds like you are paying out an awful lot of cash to live in what is basically substandard and unsafe accommodation. Your landlord should be bought to book here, is there a lettings agency involved?.

My stbxh was like this. It is wonderful not being surrounded by his chaos. I cannot emphasise enough how wonderful it is.

I've always, always made sure he had money each month, even when we were struggling to put food on the table

Wtf? He was happy to have money for himself to spend on crap when you were struggling to put food on the table?

The whole situation sounds exhausting OP. I’m not surprised you’re depressed. He’s forcing you and your DD to live in a shithole. I’d be so angry about that I wouldn’t be able to get past it.

And DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER BABY!!

bluetrampoline I feel totally the same Ot is such a relief.

Inspired by this thread, I am having a massive clear out of DSs room while he is at his Dad's. Bovril there is little point in sending stuff back to XPs as it just affects DSs life most of all, when he is tehre as his room becomes horribly cluttered and unpleasant to be in. And I have helped it to be halfway normal. There is still a corner with stuff piled in a huge heap halfway to the ceiling. So I don't want to make it worse as I don't want to have the 'your son can't come here anymore' conversation as that would devastate them both.

I am making progress with DSs room and have found loads of plastic tat which I can charity shop which he will absolutely not remember he owns or miss at all. Just wish today was longer as I'm supposed to be working from home as well and a friend said they might pop round.

I never tell my kids when I’m getting rid of something of theirs. Nine times out of ten they don’t notice and if they ever ask for it I just tell them that it must be lost and they should look after their things and keep them tidy.

I think you need to take control of the situation regarding your daughters things. She’s 6 years old and you’re the parent. I don’t think it’s right to use a new sibling as a way to persuade her. She’s not old enough to understand so you just need to take action. I’m sure if you nip this in the bud now she will be fine in the long term, yes she may get upset when she finds out you’ve cleared some toys away but kids generally move on quite quickly. Could you focus more on days out etc. outside of the house rather than playing indoors?

If you want to stay with your partner you need to be firm, GP/ talking to someone from Mind, make a plan of action. It sounds like you are living in a very unhealthy environment which will impact physically on all of you. I agree talking to the letting agent/ landlord about the house as it sounds completely unacceptable.

Good luck OP.

Oh DD doesn't have her own room at PILs' house. She sleeps on an airbed at the side of their bed - one reason I'm trying to reduce visits. Another is that the last time (last few times, TBH) that she stayed over, she came back with her hair partly dreadlocked as they'd not bothered to brush it. It's long, slightly curly & thick. I had to pick some of them out with a pin. DH agreed with me that it was utterly unacceptable & neglectful. They have a brush for her. If it happens even one more time she will not be staying over again, ever. Long hair is her choice, not ours. I'd rather cut it.

I don't plan to have another baby, at least not while this situation continues. At least 2 of the medications I'm on cause multiple severe birth defects, so there can be no possibility of "accidentally" getting pregnant. We were lucky DD was born healthy, as I was on 1 of them when I conceived her. It would have to be very, very planned. And I feel old, & tired. (I'm not really that old, but it was hard enough having a baby in my early 30s!)

Usually the money he had for himself, went on treats for the pair of us. Often it wasn't much. This was pre-baby. So perhaps a nice coffee on a particularly crappy day. He'd often spend it on me, TBH. It was more about the effect on his morale, the fact that he never had any power to make any financial decisions while he lived at his parents house, unless he did it by stealth. He had to hide money. I don't want that for him. I stayed with them for a month after a particularly nasty row with my father, & moved out ASAP & got a flat on my own when PILs tried it with me.

OP I am a hoarder and have met a lot of others. Hoarding is very resistant to treatment. Are you within easy reach of East London? This group is open to all hoarders and you could go too if you wanted to:

www.ocdaction.org.uk/support-group/london-hoarding-treatment-group

You can leave the house without leaving him. I have a friend who lives with her DC separately from her DP as it works much better for them.

He could come over and see you, could stay a few times a week and be fully involved. You would also have your own lovely clear space to live in.

Not London area, but thanks for the suggestion Mitzimaybe.

It's a thought CrabbityRabbit. I suppose it might at least be slightly less horrible as a short term measure, than splitting up permanently. And I could say that it's something I need, for my physical & mental health, & that he'd need to demonstrate that he could, & would change before I would consider moving back. Difficulty would be that I'm not currently working, so housing might be tricky to find. But it has the obvious benefit that if he didn't declutter (I honestly don't know if he would), I'd already be out, along with DD.

I think I'm going to start quietly removing small numbers of things from DD's room, every few days. Just a small bagful at a time, & donate them. And go with what IWishIHadEvenMorePlasticTat said as an explanation if she or DH ask where they've gone, which is pretty unlikely, TBH.

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I feel marginally more hopeful now I've got a vague plan.

AttilaTheMeerkat - I started watching the YouTube video that was linked on that Help For Hoarders website you linked. Bloody hell... I couldn't last long, it was too close to home. Our house is nowhere near that bad, but PILs house... really not far off. I actually found it quite stressful, I'm going to watch it all but I think it's going to have to be in small doses as it's actually making me anxious. Thanks for the links, BTW, hopefully they'll be useful. At least I know I'm not being the unreasonable one. The pictures on there are somewhat representative of DH's "areas" of the house. And DD's.

It would be very unwise bringing a baby into such an unhappy and chaotic environment.

If it got any worse and became a fire hazard you would never forgive yourself.

Put your mental health first and go to the local authorities and ask to be rehoused. You will be a priority as you have a dependent, you are disabled and it is an unsuitable place for you both to live.

Don't let things get any worse.

I'm so sorry you're going through this OP.

I know you want to help your husband - save him from his awful parents, from his poverty, and from his hoard - but you can't. You have tried so hard, and I think maybe your boundaries are a little skewed because of your past experiences with an unsupportive family and a previous abusive relationship.

This guy - who breaks his promises, requires you to support and fix him, allows his parents to neglect his daughter to the point where her hair is matted, refuses to acknowledge his issues and tries to turn it round and blame your depression - is not a good partner. He may seem better than your previous partner and you may view him as a fragile, damaged nice guy who needs endless chances but the truth is that you AND YOUR DAUGHTER deserve more.