DM - here we go again

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She’s sulking and attention seeking. Again. Every now and again there’s a flare up like this. She’s been called out on her poor behaviour yet we are the hurtful ones. I’m not doing what she wants so the toys are out of the pram.

I don’t know where things go from here. She’s said to not contact her unless I can be kind. In one sense this is a relief, I can put her out of my mind for a bit, but then what? How long does it go on for? Until Christmas (when my plans won’t suit her...)? How do we get past this?

She is so self absorbed and I t’s always always all about how hard done by she is.

I can usually forgive her but I struggle to forget. It chips away at our relationship little by little.... But this time she’s really shown herself up.

However, I don’t think I can do NC, it feels too extreme. But then LC doesn’t feel like a real option either. It means missing out with other family members and LC won’t sit well with her (more ammunition for how hurtful I am).

I’ve read all about narc mother stuff. She fits the bill. I can accept it and can deal with the emotional side, but feel lost with the practical side.

Do not pick up the rope she keeps on holding out to you.

It is not your fault she is the ways she is and you did not make her that way (her own parents did that and what if anything do you know about her childhood because that often gives clues).

You can and should be able to meet other family members without your mother otherwise being present. If they are not prepared to listen to your side of things then as people I would argue they are not worth knowing. What you are doing now is not sustainable and will further harm your own mental health. Lowering contact is an option here. She does not care what you think at all so I think you could show her the same level of non consideration here.

Why do you think NC is too extreme here; that may well be your fear, obligation and guilt talking. You really do seem mired in FOG and that stops you from moving forward too. Your lack of boundaries here also hinders but that is not entirely down to you because she has basically encouraged you not to have any when it comes to her. Do not forget you have been trained since soon after birth to put your narcissistic mother first at your overall expense.

Would you have tolerated any of this from a friend, no you would not. Your mother is no different.

Have a read of and post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these Relationships pages. You may also want to read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissitic mothers and Out of the FOG.

She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and narcissists anyway make for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures as well.

However, I don’t think I can do NC, it feels too extreme

Do you want to articulate why you would find this extreme?

Just leave it open. She said not to contact her, so... If she asks why you haven't been in touch, well - she told you not to!

Thanks Atilla you’ve helped me before on the stately homes thread (years ago under a different name). My FOG is less than it was but still there during these flare ups. Now that I understand that she expects to be above all else, I can manage it better generally.

I think nc is too much, like it’s a bit too severe a ‘punishment’. She’s not completely evil and we have ‘periods of stability’ where things tick along ok. The damage is done for things to ever be great but I mostly keep her at a distance that works for me. I don’t think it’s a distance that she would choose and it’s taken a while to set that boundary but it’s there nonetheless. Perhaps that is already LC? She’s not consistently difficult. Somehow that would make it easier! I guess it’s like a visitor to your house - I don’t want her moving in but I can chat on the doorstep. Not answering or locking her out seems a bit much somehow.

And maybe on a deeper level I feel I may be being too harsh on her. She has said she needs to protect herself from how hurtful I am. I know she’s being dramatic and deflecting the criticism, but that’s how I feel about her, so maybe we are as bad as each other

I guess we are nc at the mo anyway....!

NC is not a punishment for their behaviour.

NC is a decision made by you that you deserve better and refuse to be treated badly anymore.

It’s interesting that you see it as a way of punishing HER not protecting YOU.

narcs do have a way of making you make all your decisions based on what’s right for them and not you.

Its not you, its her. And no you are not as bad as each other, far from it.

Abusive people are not nasty all the time but the nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one.

It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and do not contact her at all. Maintain radio silence.

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when something more interesting comes along.

My guess too is that she will continue to try and railroad through any boundary you care to set her. I do not personally think that NC is a punishment towards her at all, its about you protecting yourself from being further abused.

It's very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship.

Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change.

Funny really, as I’d never thought of nc as a form of protection. More the result of a falling out that wasn’t resolved, or yes as a kind of punishment.

So much of what you say resonates Atilla. Especially the burp bit, and the “I love yous” straight after or even during an attack.

But surely what I could say about her could be said about me? Eg, by putting up boundaries I’m doing what I can tolerate, thinking about only myself, being selfish, making it about me (which is what I accuse her of). Eg, ignoring her when she says how upset/hurt she is (she ignores my feelings too, clearly!). And she’s right about some things in the way I treat her as she’s not my too priority, I am closer to other people.

I don’t know. It’s all very confusing.

Her dm was a narc. Or at least dm has told me she was. I hope I don’t end up the same.

No its called self-care.

Emotionally protect yourself - take yourself out of punching distance.

Sounds like she has gaslighted you.

Keep well away. Don't waste time trying to understand her or explain her bad behaviour. Just take action, forget words, walk dont look back.

It’s teally interesting, this idea that we could be that DM or DMIL later in life. I remember reading something many years ago saying that parents really can’t win.. you don’t love them enough or you smothered them with love, you showed too much interest in their school grades or you couldn’t be bothered and didn’t support them or your grades were never good enough and on and on.

Aside for the truly abusive parents that beat, starved or abused their children, and I know there are far too many of those, don’t the rest of us mothers just do what we think is best because we mostly love our children nowadays? I do know it wasn’t that long ago when some children were not first priority and could be seen and not heard.

What will our kids say about us on MN in years to come?

I was lucky in that I moved a long way from home for many years. However, I went back for an extended stay when I was needed and I discovered a lot of my behaviour was very similar to DMs.

I think one way to cope is to stay in the moment and not let the dramas get to you. They'll be like weather, come and go with the winds and she won't remember half what she says...which is why she'll pick up contact when it suits.

Geographically we are not close. Which is why LC is a bit tricky as visits need to take place. I have enough other stuff going on at the moment where I will be relieved to not have contact with her for a while.

I am wary of labeling her a narc wittyfuck, believe me it’s hard to think that way about your own mother. I’m sure she thinks she is doing her best, but this isn’t just about her parenting - it’s her personality and general behavior - she’s offended and hurt a lot of people over the years and I don’t know anyone else who has behaved this way. She’s difficult at best, narc at worst.

I’m terrified of my dc feeling the same.

Geographically we are not close. Which is why LC is a bit tricky as visits need to take place

Why though?. When you say visits who would you be visiting?.

It seems to be that thankfully Witty has no real experience about toxic families and how they operate. I have also seen those types of comments from others and they usually come from people who have had emotionally healthy parents themselves. They cannot even begin to comprehend that there are indeed people out there who act like your mother does.

You wrote earlier that you have read about narcissism and your mother fits that particular bill. Do not continue to doubt yourself here. BTW I have no doubt at all that your mother's mother was also a narcissist; toxic crap like this can and does go down the generations. But importantly here it has stopped with you. You know that your mother's treatment of you is wrong. Its not your fault your mother is the ways she is either, you did not make her that way (hence my also saying earlier her parents did that).

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents and some of them are not emotionally healthy. Emotionally unhealthy people can be emotionally neglectful as well; abuse is about power and control and unhealthy toxic people want absolute over their siblings ruling with absolute rules of iron. They do not just have to hit you to hurt you.

Many many people who have toxic parents have the fear that they will become the same as them towards their children. It often happens that when these people become parents themselves, they really do then realise how badly their own parents treated them in childhood. If you fear that you could become a narcissist or think that you are becoming more and more like your mother (which you are not, you are a separate person from your mother although she sees you as an extension of her) then you are in all likelihood not a narcissist. You personally have two qualities that your mother certainly lack; insight and empathy. I cannot express enough how lacking in empathy narcissists are.

Very true about the insight & empathy.

When you grow up with a narc you learn how to deal with situations in a narc way. So you will do that.

But (if you aren’t a narc) about early adulthood (when you generally leave home and get a job or go to uni) you realise that the way you are behaving is wrong and change. You have the insight and self awareness and compassion to look at yourself and change your behaviour.
If you are a narc, it wouldn’t happen. You would just follow the narc script.

The fact you are here, is a strong indication that you are not.

outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas

Thanks again. MN is as good as therapy!!!

She wants to visit us. She wants us to visit her. It’s 7 hours (inc a flight) so has to be for at least a long weekend.

She knows her dm was horrid to her. And all the classic narc relationship traits were there. Enabling father (my GF), golden child sibling etc. DM has tried to not be the same but I think is so damaged from the way she was treated that she’s incredibly sensitive and has always always felt hard done by which has led to this self-focused existence where she creates these situations where other people’s behaviors upset her, even if they had nothing to do with her, because that’s how a lot of her childhood felt.

I don’t feel hard done by, it’s just the way it is. I wish I had a lovely close relationship with a mother but I also love my own independence and space so am also happy without it.

I don’t think I’m a narc necessarily but I worry that dm also wanted to break the cycle and not repeat how her dm was, and is failing. So ok yeah, I’m not a narc but maybe she isn’t either. She’s just a bit messed up and unhappy. No that doesn’t excuse her behavior but it may go some way to explaining it. And that even though I don’t think I’m a narc, her behavior is some kind of reference so I know I hear her coming through sometimes in that way I talk to the kids. I am aware of it though and try to stop it. But then I worry that I’m doing the nasty-nice thing! Argh!

I just feel sad about it all now. She’d made me so angry last week and now I just feel sad.

Why does she have to cause so much unhappiness for herself? It’s so destructive and it upsets her. No good comes from her behavior yet she can’t see that at all.

I feel very sorry for her. I know it’s not my responsibility or fault, I just wish she could find an easier way to handle things.

Someone posted a thing on fb saying:
If someone wants you in their life, they’ll make room for you. You shouldn’t have to fight for a spot. Never, ever insist yourself to someone who continually overlooks your worth.

I know this is what she feels I’m doing. She does have to fight for a spot in my life as I don’t make much room for her Regardless of anything else, this must be difficult to be on the receiving end, as a mother, no?

So I guess I can add feeling guilty to feeling sad

Say no to any visit your mother wants to make and do not visit her either. It will be crap for you on so many levels if you do see each other and you will feel miserable. Establish yourself a small but significant boundary here in saying no this does not work for us. I see you have children; do not keep on exposing them or yourself to that matter to your mother's emotional manipulations and emotional abuse.

I think that ultimately you will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

You have always tried to make room for her or otherwise accommodate her. She has never given you that consideration at all because she is a narcissist so its not possible to have a relationship with her anyway. Emotionally healthy people do not behave here like your mother does and continues to do.

Its not your fault both she and her mother are narcissists; such toxic dysfunctional stuff really does go down the generations. Now you as a third generation are affected because you are now an adult child of a narcissist. You remain profoundly affected by being such and now you are waking up.

You wrote earlier that you had read around all the stuff on narcissists and she fits the bill. Feeling both sad and guilty are all trademarks of FOG; the old fear, obligation and guilt such disordered of thinking toxic people give to their long suffering adult offspring. It really is the gift that keeps on giving.

But you can heal despite all this, you really can.

I would seriously consider finding a therapist here to work with. Importantly this needs to be someone who has vast experience in working with adult children of narcissists along with no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Interview such people carefully with all the due diligence you would use for a job interview.

There have been quite a few threads here over last few weeks about do Narcs change / what is the worst thing Narc mother did. Have a read - long story short - they never change and they continue to hurt, manipulate and abuse.

She will not change, so she will 100% hurt you again. Each time YOU allow her to do this you get punched, winded and knocked to the floor emotionally. You then need to find Herculean strength to pull yourself back up again just to carry on with your daily life. Whilst all of this is going on you are distracted and preoccupied with the hurt, trying to rationalise the irrational and trying to get back on your feet emotionally. This is taking up your headspace and finite energy which means there is less available for your DC, the other positive, rewarding and fulfilling relationships in your life. Choose who to give your energy to, take yourself out of punching distance and move in to a much more enriching life with your DC.

Attila I think I've already grieved for the relationship we won't have.

I do get to the FOG stuff, but pushing it away isn't always easy.

I will consider therapy, though I feel like it'll be hard emotionally. And actually what if the therapist thinks I could've been kinder, that I could've let her in more, that I should actually be a better daughter?

Overall I think I've been doing the grey rock thing. She's seen through it and wants more more more. What she doesn't realise is that I'm actually quite introvert (though not shy). I enjoy my own space, I need my own space. I'm independent, to the point I struggle to ask for help (I wonder why!!!). This is how I am with everyone, not just her. It's not that personal, but of course she thinks I'm singling her out to be horrid to.

Another20 you are right. These past days I've been consumed with this situation. I need to just shrug my shoulders and crack on with my life. Interestingly, it's what she says she is doing too (eg. protecting herself from me - and this is where I come back to the point where how am I any better than her if I am effectively saying the same about her).

I worry about what my role is expected to be as she becomes elderly. And whether I can live with or become free from the guilt of detaching more and more.

Hothandle,

re your comment:-

"I will consider therapy, though I feel like it'll be hard emotionally. And actually what if the therapist thinks I could've been kinder, that I could've let her in more, that I should actually be a better daughter?"

That would be the wrong therapist for you then. Hence my earlier comment about finding someone who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. That is very important.

Grey rocking with narcissists can be itself exhausting and low contact often leads to no contact. You owe your mother nothing, not even a relationship. As I have said before it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

Yes you do need to shrug your shoulders and get on with life - but that would be unrealistic and impossible without support from a skilled therapists who would work with you to heal the damage she has caused to your core through childhood. Immersing yourself in positive relationships with good friends will nourish you, make you emotionally strong and will throw a stark contrast against your DMs dysfunctional behaviour - which will give you the confidence and rational to put in the distance and see that you have no obligations to her - apart from one - which is to keep your distance so that her continued abuse if you does not seep through and pollute the relationships you have with your own DC, DP, DF

I think it's hard to make good friends if your first relationship is flawed and you feel unliked by your mother.

However, I do think therapy helps as does the realisation it's just one relationship you have and you don't always have to like your mother, even if you do love her, etc.