DM - here we go again

[HotHandle]

She’s sulking and attention seeking. Again. Every now and again there’s a flare up like this. She’s been called out on her poor behaviour yet we are the hurtful ones. I’m not doing what she wants so the toys are out of the pram.

I don’t know where things go from here. She’s said to not contact her unless I can be kind. In one sense this is a relief, I can put her out of my mind for a bit, but then what? How long does it go on for? Until Christmas (when my plans won’t suit her...)? How do we get past this?

She is so self absorbed and I t’s always always all about how hard done by she is.

I can usually forgive her but I struggle to forget. It chips away at our relationship little by little.... But this time she’s really shown herself up.

However, I don’t think I can do NC, it feels too extreme. But then LC doesn’t feel like a real option either. It means missing out with other family members and LC won’t sit well with her (more ammunition for how hurtful I am).

I’ve read all about narc mother stuff. She fits the bill. I can accept it and can deal with the emotional side, but feel lost with the practical side.

Sorry. Guess you now know how she has been spending the time you have been in no contact. Building up a narrative where you are the bad one where she has been the most loving of mothers who doesn’t deserve such a horrible daughter.

She certainly wasn’t worried about you.

She’s shown her pals my messages. I asked her if she’d also explained the full context. She seems to think she has yet they still all agree on how viciously unkind I’ve been and how it must be my grief that’s making me act this way towards her I need to remember that it’s her behaviour that has caused this and that me calling her out on it is far less vicious than her actual behaviour and subsequent actions

Anyway, it has made me realize more than ever that this can not go anywhere.

What kind of questions should I ask the counsellors?

First question, before you even meet with a counsellor, is to ask have they good experience in dealing with people who have been badly affected by narcissists!

Why are you still engaging with her, asking about has she explained the context? What do you really think? She's telling you they all agree with her - she's never going to tell you anything different.
I identify with what you're going through - my sympathies, it's shit.

Ok thanks. Anything else to ask?

I guess I wanted to somehow get her to acknowledge everything she’s done and then she might see why I’m not readily warning to her at the moment. But of course, they’ve had her version of events and she’s absolved herself of any wrong-doing (though I have too, am I projecting??) so I guess I was also trying to suggest that the full context is not just her side of the story. Pointless - I can see that. And actually I guess that goes for anyone, not just her - ie it is not my job to try to make someone see something from my perspective.

She’s tried to contact me at work and I’ve said I don’t have the time or inclination to continue to go in circles.

She wants to know what to get the kids for xmas. I don’t plan to reply but suspect the next thing will be that I’m unfairly preventing her from having a relationship with them when all she’s trying to do is be a good grandparent. That or there will be a health issue. God I sound unsympathetic.

You are so in the FOG!!!

You still seem to believe that your mother is right and your feelings etc must be wrong...

A little yes.

I don’t think she’s right. I know she’s not 100% right. But I am also not 100% confident I’m blameless either.

And I am unsure of the “rules” of managing a narc parent. Nor am I feeling strong enough to deal with her positioning me as the awful daughter and still holding my head up high and feeling sure of my own behaviour, actions and words.

Why does someone have to have the blame? That's her game, why are you playing it?

Would you have to be 100% "good" to be satisfied with yourself? If so, why?

The rules with a Narc are really go no contact and LOTS of therapy.

She will argue Black is white and continually tie your self worth in knots.

Your mental health is more important than getting your side of the relationship "blameless". Even if you are blameless she will still blame you...

And I am unsure of the “rules” of managing a narc parent.

Such people like your mother HotHandle cannot be managed. It has to be no contact and lots of therapy for the adult child of the narcissist. They operate under their own agenda and its always all about them and them alone. Your mother has no pals as such either, she uses these people as her own personal narcissistic supply. Such people can be easily manipulated into unwittingly doing her bidding for her. Stop picking up the rope she holds out to you; refuse to play the game. Stop walking into her trap of, "come closer so I can hurt you again".

It is really NOT POSSIBLE to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and I would also keep her well away from your children also. They do not need your mother in their lives let alone have a Christmas present from her (the present itself being utter crap and loaded to the brim with obligation).

From how I see it, she is to blame. She attacked me out of the blue for living my life how I want to. I could not just stand there and take it, especially when she’s said and done some shitty things to me and others over the past few months. I was incensed that she could attack me for something that she’s twisted into being about her. And when she’s called out on it all merry hell breaks loose.

No I don’t have to be 100% good, that’s impossible. But clearly some self-examination is needed when there is a conflict, no? Otherwise isn’t just pure arrogance?

But I do also understand that I will never be blameless in her eyes. (But neither is she in mine!!! Argh!!!!)

You’re right that my sanity is more important than blaming her or confirming a blameless position for myself.

She is saying you are to blame, so you feel you have to defend yourself by saying she is to blame too? Then she says you are to blame, then you say she is ...

Someone else said "drop the ball". How about if you just don't play that game? Let her think you are to blame.

Had a big bust-up last year, and after a few months, as it was coming up to Xmas I phoned up and apologised. I did not say she was also to blame. I did not discuss it any further. I let her "win". Game over. No more fun.

Now I'm not visiting any more and not feeling guilty about it. I was thinking yesterday I should put it in my calendar to phone every two months or so. She's lovely on the phone.

Self examination certainly has its place but always ask yourself- would x y z have behaved like DM, what would a non narc have done?

What would someone have to do for me to do/say what mother has?

What do you think your answer will be?

A poster called @Renarde1975 has recently started a thread called Life after a Narcissist, it might be helpful for you to have a look at it.
She has mentioned a narcissist HG Tudor who, for whatever reason (probably to sell his books!), has decided to be helpful to people affected by narcissists, and has written what his/their thinking is when they do their awful things. Renarde has put a link in that thread, but it's to a paid e-book; however HG Tudor's website is here narcsite.com/ and he has plenty of illuminating articles that you don't have to pay to read.

Also to point out a difference between you and your mother - she thinks she's 100% in the right and she thinks you're 100% in the wrong. You are trying very hard to blame yourself as much as possible. Yet no one is perfect. Is it possible she's 90% in the wrong and you're 10%?! Or 50/50? All or nothing "black and white thinking" stems from life growing up with a narcissist. In my own case I was either the best daughter or I was the worst in the world.

To me, you even thinking "maybe we’re as bad as each other..." shows the difference between you. I'd be fairly sure that thought hasn't crossed your mother's mind.

Thank you. I can see that blame is pointless. And on many many many other occasions I’ve just apologized to let her think she’s won and to stop the crap.

This time I can’t. She’s gone too far. She has hurt me and others at a time when we’ve all been quite vulnerable.

I do want to let it go but it feels the only way to do that is to keep her out of my life as much as possible. It’s hard to accept that really and I feel a bit out of my depth in terms of being equipped to deal with it, hence feeling now is the right time for therapy.

In our family, the technique to stop the crap was for everyone to just pretend everything was fine ASAP. I'd never tried apologising before.

Last year, before the visit, I had decided I didn't want to do that any more, and that if I was upset by anything she said I would not just ignore it: I thought we'd discuss it. But I should have known: she refused to discuss it, and my being upset about what she had said turned into her being the victim. I realised discussion was just not possible. Maybe as she's too old, maybe as she has never had counselling so just can't look her issues in the face.

So, as discussion was not possible, I went down the apology route, which took the wind out from her sails so much that she even started saying that she shouldn't have dismissed my feelings as I "must have believed" she was upsetting me. I think that's the closest I'll ever come to her admitting she might have upset me

In any case, in my head I've decided that's it: discussion doesn't work, so the only way I can avoid bust-ups is to avoid her. I'm going for my version of the grey rock, or "stupid and cheerful" (try googling). Pleasant and distant. When she's in good form she can be really nice, kind and thoughtful, but when she gets stressed she becomes paranoid and starts lashing out. Being with other people stresses her, so I'm taking that stress away, leaving her on her own and enjoying the nice side on the phone.

I’ve been grey-rocking for years. I keep her at arms length, I tell her very little, I keep the conversations focused on her (pretty bloody easy!). I kind of nodded and smiled and let her do whatever she needed to do.

However, as I say, this time she’s gone a step too far. This is beyond going “yep let’s move on”.

Is grey-rocking sustainable in the long-term? I can’t see it really being conducive to positive well-being on either side because there’s something disingenuous about the pretense that all is fine, no?

I adopt the grey rock technique with my narcissist MIL with some success but I think the best way forward for you here is ultimately is to have no contact with her at all. And the sooner you can get them out of your life, the sooner you can start to heal.

Stay strong. This isn’t your fault. You aren’t crazy. You aren’t over-reacting.

First chat with therapist went well I think. She made some interesting connections with my childhood and suggested some interesting ways to help me going forward (which do not include resolving things with DM or fixing what’s happened).

In the meantime I have told DM I can go no further with her on this topic. I said I’m sorry that she’s been upset and that that wasn’t my intention. Of course no acknowledgement of her behaviour or hint of an apology. But that’s ok, I didn’t expect it, and it confirms how self-absorbed she really is. So on the face of it the topic is closed, from my side at least. But underneath, the damage is done.

In terms of future contact, I don’t know how that’ll look. I will send cards at birthdays and Christmas and respond if and when she gets in touch but at this point in time I don’t have anything much to say to her.

Sounds like you are in a good place to do what you need to do.

Therapy is sounding good and you can either up contact or take it away in the future depending on the situation.