CAN A NARCISSIST CHANGE?

[Isabella26xx]

Please answer honestly
Not judgemental etc

Can a person who has narcissist behaviour change or improve even? Can a life event help?

A narcissist who has toxic/abusive tendencies... I'm still not sure if there is a difference between all these or are they just in one category

Thanks

No. Just no.

Why do you say that Pickle?

@Lizzie48

You could have written that whole post about my ex! That sounds exactly like him I'm shocked!!!

@heartsease yes that's what I meant. Only the narcissist can change themselves, certainly no one else can change them

Well, one of the tricks people with narcissistic tendencies use is to try to convince people that nothing is ever their fault and that it's the other person's job to make change happen. No matter what it costs them.

@TheFormidableMrsC, I remember your posts in MN, ironically as I was going through am abusive marriage. With help of MN and books I started to put in place boundaries, which caused his behaviour to escalate.
I separared and his behaviour post has been shocking and I also believes he wishes me dead. When the mask comes off and you have full NPD fury it is scary.

Ex was married before, I came on the scene much later, but now know why she would not speak to him.
I believe they have to have someone to hate, its the only way they function.

NC for this to keep myself safe.

I found this article several years ago on line and refer back to it frequently when trying to deal with the latest episode of narcissistic abuse.

I hope it help !!

-----------------

Nothing is more damaging to your confidence and self-esteem than being in an emotionally abusive relationship.

Unlike physical abuse which rears its ugly head in dramatic outbursts, emotional abuse can be more insidious and elusive. In some cases, neither the abuser nor the victim are fully aware it’s happening.

The most obvious scenario for emotional abuse is in an intimate relationship in which a man is the abuser and the woman is the victim. However, a variety of studies show that men and women abuse each other at equal rates.* In fact, emotional abuse can occur in any relationship — between parent and child, in friendships, and with relatives.

So what is emotional abuse? It involves a regular pattern of verbal offense, threatening, bullying, and constant criticism, as well as more subtle tactics like intimidation, shaming and manipulation. Emotional abuse is used to control and subjugate the other person, and quite often it occurs because the abuser has childhood wounds and insecurities they haven’t dealt with — perhaps as a result of being abused themselves.

They didn’t learn healthy coping mechanisms or how to have positive, healthy relationships. Instead, they feel angry, hurt, fearful and powerless.

Are you living with an emotional abuser? Click hereto get your free Emotional Abuse Test. Find out your personal score.

Male and female abusers tend to have high rates of personality disorders including borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and antisocial personality disorder. Although emotional abuse doesn’t always lead to physical abuse, physical abuse is almost always preceded and accompanied by emotional abuse.*

The victim of the abuse quite often doesn’t see the mistreatment as abusive. They develop coping mechanisms of denial and minimizing in order to deal with the stress. But the effects of long-term emotional abuse can cause severe emotional trauma in the victim, including depression, anxiety, and post traumatic stress disorder.

If you aren’t sure what constitutes this damaging behavior, here are 30 signs of emotional abuse.

1. They humiliate you, put you down, or make fun of you in front of other people.

1. They regularly demean or disregard your opinions, ideas, suggestions, or needs.

1. They use sarcasm or “teasing” to put you down or make you feel bad about yourself.

1. They accuse you of being “too sensitive” in order to deflect their abusive remarks.

1. They try to control you and treat you like a child.

1. They correct or chastise you for your behavior.

1. You feel like you need permission to make decisions or go out somewhere.

1. They try to control the finances and how you spend money.

1. They belittle and trivialize you, your accomplishments, or your hopes and dreams.

10. They try to make you feel as though they are always right, and you are wrong.

11. They give you disapproving or contemptuous looks or body language.

12. They regularly point out your flaws, mistakes, or shortcomings.

13. They accuse or blame you of things you know aren’t true.

14. They have an inability to laugh at themselves and can’t tolerate others laughing at them.

15. They are intolerant of any seeming lack of respect.

16. They make excuses for their behavior, try to blame others, and have difficulty apologizing.

17. The repeatedly cross your boundaries and ignore your requests.

18. They blame you for their problems, life difficulties, or unhappiness.

19. They call you names, give you unpleasant labels, or make cutting remarks under their breath.

20. They are emotionally distant or emotionally unavailable most of the time.

21. They resort to pouting or withdrawal to get attention or attain what they want.

22. They don’t show you empathy or compassion.

23. They play the victim and try to deflect blame to you rather than taking personal responsibility.

24. They disengage or use neglect or abandonment to punish or frighten you.

25. They don’t seem to notice or care about your feelings.

26. They view you as an extension of themselves rather than as an individual.

27. They withhold sex as a way to manipulate and control.

28. They share personal information about you with others.

29. They invalidate or deny their emotionally abusive behavior when confronted.

30. They make subtle threats or negative remarks with the intent to frighten or control you.

The first step for those being emotionally abused is recognizing it’s happening. If you recognize any of the signs of emotional abuse in your relationship, you need to be honest with yourself so you can regain power over your own life, stop the abuse, and begin to heal. For those who’ve been minimizing, denying, and hiding the abuse, this can be a painful and frightening first step.

The stress of emotional abuse will eventually catch up with you in the form of illness, emotional trauma, depression, or anxiety. You simply can’t allow it to continue, even if it means ending the relationship. A licensed counselor who is trained in abusive relationships can help you navigate the pain and fears of leaving the relationship and work with you to rebuild your self-esteem.

Can an emotional abuser change? It is possible if the abuser deeply desires to change and recognizes his or her abusive patterns and the damage caused by them. However, the learned behaviors and feelings of entitlement and privilege are very difficult to change. The abusers tend to enjoy the power they feel from emotional abuse, and as a result, a very low percentage of abusers can turn themselves around.

According to Lundy Bancroft, author of the book Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, here are some of the changes an abuser (either man or woman) needs to make to begin recovery:

Admit fully to what they have done.
Stop making excuses and blaming.
Make amends.
Accept responsibility and recognize that abuse is a choice.
Identify the patterns of controlling behavior they use.
Identify the attitudes that drive their abuse.
Accept that overcoming abusiveness is a decades-long process — not declaring themselves “cured.”
Not demanding credit for improvements they’ve made.
Not treating improvements as vouchers to be spent on occasional acts of abuse (ex. “I haven’t done anything like this in a long time, so it’s not a big deal).
Develop respectful, kind, supportive behaviors.
Carry their weight and sharing power.
Change how they respond to their partner’s (or former partner’s) anger and grievances.
Change how they act in heated conflicts.
Accept the consequences of their actions (including not feeling sorry for themselves about the consequences, and not blaming their partner or children for them).
If the emotional abuser in your relationship isn’t interested in changing, and you aren’t in a position to leave the relationship immediately, here are some strategies for reclaiming your power and self-esteem for the short term:

Put your own needs first. Stop worrying about pleasing or protecting the abuser. Take care of yourself and your needs, and let the other person worry about themselves — even when they pout or try to manipulate you and control your behavior.

Set some firm boundaries. Tell your abuser he or she may no longer yell at you, call you names, be rude to you, etc. If the bad behavior occurs, let them know you will not tolerate it and leave the room or get in the car and drive to a friend’s house.

Don’t engage. If the abuser tries to pick a fight or win an argument, don’t engage with anger, over-explaining yourself, or apologies to try to sooth him/her. Just keep quiet and walk away.

Realize you can’t “fix” them. You can’t make this person change or reason your way into their hearts and minds. They must want to change and recognize the destructive quality of their behavior and words. You’ll only feel worse about yourself and the situation by repeated “interventions.”

You are not to blame. If you’ve been entrenched in an abusive relationship for a while, it can be crazy-making. You start to feel like something must be wrong with you since this other person treats you so poorly. Begin to acknowledge to yourself that it is NOT you. This is the first step toward rebuilding your self-esteem.

Seek support. Talk to trusted friends and family or a counselor about what you are going through. Get away from the abusive person as often as possible, and spend time with those who love and support you. This support system will help you feel less alone and isolated while you still contend with the abuser.

Develop an exit plan. You can’t remain in an emotionally abusive relationship forever. If finances or children or some other valid reason prevents you from leaving now, develop a plan for leaving as soon as possible. Begin saving money, looking for a place to live, or planning for divorce if necessary so you can feel more in control and empowered.

Emotional abuse is a form of brain-washing that slowly erodes the victim’s sense of self-worth, security, and trust in themselves and others. In many ways, it is more detrimental than physical abuse because it slowly disintegrates one’s sense of self and personal value. It cuts to the core of your essential being, which can create lifelong psychological scars and emotional pain.

I think that the worst bit, as pps have said, is the fact that not only do they not change, they continue to torture you whenever possible. I swear my xh sits plotting ways to get at me - we split up 8 years ago (his instigation). Only last week he emailed me (I won't allow phone or text contact) to tell me that when he kills himself, im not to worry, he's left dd a long series of letters explaining how evil I am and how I drove him to that point. I haven't seen the man in 3 years and never contact him other than re access to dd 3 times a year. And I'm driving him to suicide.
I didn't reply so then got 9 million emails complaining that I don't care, why do I behave like this, aren't I ashamed of myself??
I won't hear anything for a while now, so can breathe again for a few months.

From all that I’ve read (narcs in my family, and was very briefly with one when I was young but did get away), they cannot change. And they pick their ‘victims’ accordingly. Run like hell. I was with a narc for only a year when I was young (much older man, classically picking the vulnerable, screwed up girl that I was) and the damage it did was severe. When I look back at the verbal abuse, the gaslighting, the constant emotional abuse swinging between being lovely for all of five minutes to days of unexplained silence, I want to go back now and punch him in the face. One of my sisters has married one and it’s been like watching a horror movie, she’s utterly under his spell and terrified of challenging him, and doesn’t have her own mind at all. Everything is deferred. “What do you think?” to her H. If you dare to question or disagree with him he will never speak to you again. Unless it’s her - when she questions him I’ve witnessed firsthand the torrents of verbal abuse, telling her how worthless she is. He demands absolute adoration from everyone around him. He’s a shit husband and father and after 15 years I don’t think she’ll ever wake up and leave him. I think early into the marriage she did know something was wrong, but she’s so brainwashed now and says things like ‘I didn’t understand love, but now I do, he loves me so well’ His mother is one too and between them I’m not sure which is worse, but thinking about it, my ex’s mother was one too. I’m sure someone more knowledgable can join the dots here.

That list is really useful. I know that I have done some of these things myself at times under duress (I'm sure we all do) and maybe unknowingly have done more. But its not what I aspire to.

Only this week my ex directly blamed me for something which pretty much ruined his life more than a decade ago. Something he did AFTER we split up, and that had huge consequences for me and the children. But he's blaming me. .

@StarsMoonSun my DP has been NC with his ex since February and she is still accusing him of abusing and threatening her. I feel your pain.

@FeelslikeDevon I'm sure his ex would like me and DP dead. Her chav bf has made death threats to DP; he's just as bad as her. If I never had any contact with either of them again, it would be too soon.

So how does a Narcissist become one? Where did it all begin?

Then first video posted by Gingernaut on 24/08/2018 at 06:48 has some thoughts on what makes a narcissist.

My personal experience would say a combination of nature and nurture, but ultimately a coping mechanism which has got out of control, where the capacity to feel empathy for others is underdeveloped, and the natural infantile narcissism doesn’t evolve into a more mature world view.

Bit of both; nature and nurture. However nurture has a larger impact.
Narcissism is a personality trait which can tip over into full blown disorder if the right triggers are in place.

This thread is very histrionic.

Everyone has traits of narcissism, it's quite normal.

As for having NPD, sure that's a thing but armchair diagnosis is a troubling pastime on MN. Just bc you think someone has NPD doesn't mean they do, and assuming so is not helpful. There are many reasons why people can behave in anti social ways but what we do know for sure is that the only control we have is of our own behaviour, not others.

So before you make an armchair diagnosis, take a good look at yourself. What can you do to maintain healthy boundaries?

I had very strong narcissistic tendencies throughout my early adulthood but I've had a lot of psychological help to gain insight into my behaviour and triggers for anti social tendencies.

I still have moments of frustration and thoughts that are less than pure but I have definitely changed for the better and am generally more socially responsible.

NPD often overlaps OCPD (obsessive compulsive personality disorder - NOT to be confused with OCD, which is completely different). Curiously, or all the personality disorders, it is the one which CAN respond well to treatment. Unfortunately, most people with this tendencies see their viewpoint as being superior and so would never dream of undergoing therapy. In short, yes, they can improve but I really wouldn’t count on it. As an escapee of such a man, my advice would be to run like the wind.

Good luck

pickle I agree that people bandy the ‘narc’ label around a bit too glibly around here, more or less as shorthand for a set of behaviours.

The key is recognising the need to change and being willing to take steps to do so. The people who I know who fall into this broad category have got worse with age as their behaviours have become more entrenched.

I was pretty self absorbed when younger but didn’t like who I was and it didn’t feel ‘right’. So I did something about it.

Yes, narracist do change, they get worse.

A trait of narracist is that they feel superior and don’t do anything wrong. As they get older (IMO) their behaviour gets worse.

My mum is a narracist. I couldn’t put my finger on it for years and then realised. She hasn’t spoken to me since Christmas (of the relief) as i’m being ‘punished’. Long may her stubbornness and obstinance continue.

I’m not sure all narcissists feel superior. I think a lot of them feel utterly wretched. But those ‘vulnerable’ narcissists think the solution is to blame and control the people around them. The idea that other people deserve better is beyond them.

They can't change because to change they'd have to admit something was wrong with them and they refuse to do that because it's always someone else's fault.

Exh is a narcissist. I thought it was upbringing- he's definitely encouraged by his parents. However dd is showing marked signs of narcissistic behaviour. And considering she has limited contact with him I can only assume that this is an inbuilt/genetic trait. She's also autistic and he's probably on the spectrum and part of being autistic is a tendency to put yourself first. However I know plenty of kind unselfish autistic people so that may be a red herring. Ds is also autistic but does not show narcissistic behaviour. Does demonstrate mind blindness so completely ignores needs of other people but doesn't do it maliciously unlike dd.

Am trying desperately to train narcissistic traits out of her while she's still young and trainable. Not sure it's working tho 😢

Stillnot I’m almost in exactly the same boat. Covert narc ex p, her father a screaming exhibitionist narc with obvious self esteem issues and a ds diagnosed asd aged 3.

I think the thing to remember is that children and young adults are naturally narcissistic, only in later life will these traits turn into a disorder. That’s my understanding anyway. As long as you are showing unconditional love and good moral guidance there is every chance that your dc will grow up with the ability to know right from wrong. I think you’ve got to be a bit careful with “training” these traits out of them in a direct way- just show them good examples and highlight the importance of thinking of others too and you will be giving them the framework to learn for themselves later in life, in my opinion.

It can be learned behaviour - in which case there is hope. If the person identifies that their behaviour isn't working and is causing pain.

stillnot that must be very hard for you. I am not trying to minimise your experiences but lots of young people can be pretty self-absorbed until they grow out of it, and autism isn't helping. I hope this proves the case for your daughter. .

I agree with adarkandstormy I have very strong Narc tendencies, I think there’s a genetic link as my father, brother and grandfather were classic narcs
However, as a girl I wasn’t really worthy of attention so was largely ignored by the 3 of them so I think I was fortunate enough to miss out on a lot of the “nurture “ part of the process
When I was younger I DID display some of the behaviours but for some reason ( partly meeting DH I’m sure) I began to realise that other people were actually my equals and had valid feelings and opinions and that when I left a room everyone in it DIDNT cease to exist. I saw that I could really hurt people and that this wasn’t right.
At times I do have to think “ how would a normal person react to this” but at other times I naturally show empathy. The easiest way to explain it is that I have an inner Narc voice but I know it’s mostly wrong and override it
Whether that means I’m not actually a Narc I don’t know but I don’t think I “got better” I just never fully developed as one
Another interesting point about themgetting worse, there have been studies to suggest that there is often 1 person in The Narcs life that is a bigger Narc than them ( usually a parent) and when that person dies they get worse. It was certainly true with my family. My father got a whole lot worse after my grandfather died and my brother got worse when my father died.

At times I do have to think “ how would a normal person react to this” but at other times I naturally show empathy.

Gosh that rings true for me! There have been a few times when I just didn't respond to significant/emotive news the way other people seemed to. It was as if I had to consciously work on awakening that 'closed' part of my mind. But I think that this can happen when you are around people with narcissistic traits. Your 'normal' growing up isn't what most people experience at home but you have no way of knowing that until you experience something different.

When I was 16 a close friend at school was killed in a car accident
When the head of year called us together to announce it I just thought “ that’s sad”and went to go to class, while everyone else was sobbing
The school actually asked my Mum to come to school to speak to me ( nobody else’s) as they thought my “abnormal “ reaction meant I was having some sort of breakdown. I did think it was a shame as I had liked her but found the hysteria a bit baffling at the time.
According to other online ( so probably total crap) tests I have strong psychopathic tendencies too - but I’ve learnt to hide them . Someone I worked with once said to me “ people think you are really nice, but you aren’t “.
When I was growing up nice = weak and if you showed weakness it could be exploited
DH always says I would be useful in a Zombie apocalypse because I would have no morals or qualms about doing anything to ensure the 4 of us survived!!