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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

UNMARRIED -NO RIGHTS!!!

431 replies

Oncewasneedy · 03/08/2018 02:19

Just wondering what MN readers would think about a campaign for the rights of unmarried women/mums!! (Long one-sorry)
I am so tired of hearing about women on here getting the crap end of the stick purely because they weren't married! And also because they don't understand that being unmarried leaves you with no rights over anything!
I was one of those women!
I met my partner when I was 16 and he was 30. It was all good for a long time and when he proposed to me I didn't even look back! The very next day he said he wanted a long engagement! I was not happy about this!! But when I also began to have my own thoughts about things he didn't like it!
However in the time we were together we had 4 children! I would have had more as he wanted but his behaviour got more unforgivable with each birth! (Think narcissistic and your there)
We also went through many problems with losing parents to our family business going to pot! We fought hard to get our livelihood back and thank god we did it!
But despite everything it wasn't enough! I could go on and on about how selfish he was and how I thought I would die of sadness and loneliness being with him but it doesn't serve anyone! I begged him to try but in the end I couldn't take anymore and I left!
After 20 years together I had to leave!
I had to leave the home I had raised my children in, where they took their first steps, where I bathed them and had their birthday parties and Christmas!
I had to leave because I had no rights to the home- all in his name!
After 20 years- I meant no more to him than hired help!
Thank god I took a part time job when the youngest started school otherwise I would have been clueless!
Clearly this is a rant and a half but do other married women think that unmarried women should get legal protection in some form! I know that some women will flame me for being so naive and an idiot but when you meet someone at the age of 16 it twists your mind somewhat!
Im still trying to get my head around it all! So I'm sorry if I still sound angry!!!

OP posts:
Donthugmeimscared · 03/08/2018 17:33

I know every one says parents should teach this to their children but what if they are one of the miss informed who believe you have rights after so many years?

As for me it wouldn't have made any difference if I was married or not as my ex earnt less than me and we live in a council house. I would have been skint either way.

RainySeptember · 03/08/2018 17:35

There have actually been several campaigns to raise awareness of this issue.

In fact, there's a 'cohabitation awareness week' in November!

Just googling, it's been in the mainstream press as an issue many times.

People know, they just don't believe it'll happen to them.

And yes, maybe a social media campaign would hit the hard-of-understanding more effectively.

N33dm0remilk · 03/08/2018 17:46

Story in the news the other day. A couple only had a Sharia marriage. They divorced and the woman was awarded half the assets, even though no UK marriage had taken place.

CesiraAndEnrico · 03/08/2018 17:54

And yes, maybe a social media campaign would hit the hard-of-understanding more effectively

And the young.

Looking back I think I heard the common law wife thing when I was around 15/16. So mid 80s. SIL probably did too cos we are around the same age. And we likely heard various versions of that (living together +kids = responsibilities/protections) , repeated as confirmation of previous information, from peers as they in ever greater numbers started living together and having children without marriage.

At some point we must have become deaf and blind to messages that pointed to the opposite. Because hand on heart, as 30 something educated, professional (but at that time tied up with maternity and early childhood responsibilities and not working) women .... we were both knocked for six when the solicitor told her no such protections existed.

In retrospect I think the window of opportunity to prime us to be ready to question the "lay knowledge" we were being exposed to would have been before it properly penetrated and became an assumed truth.

So, mid to late teens.

fuzzywuzzy · 03/08/2018 18:06

The shariah marriage thing hasn’t gchanged be to asset split yet.

The judge ruled that the marriage be annulled as there was evidence of a marriage however it did not meet the criteria of a legal marriage.

QueenDoria · 03/08/2018 18:09

I wonder if the lack of knowledge about legal rights came about when society became less judgemental about co-habiting etc? Perhaps the judging said came from a place of overviewing how the relationship might pan out?

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 03/08/2018 18:32

That was my point donthugme! Enough adults are completely misinformed about this issue that leaving parents to educate their children is not going to solve the problem. You can't pass on accurate information from a place of ignorance, and people have to realise they don't know before they take steps to remedy that.

RainySeptember · 03/08/2018 18:41

But why do all the asset-protecting men know, but not the women? It's hard to believe that they don't in the majority of cases. Surely they are just hanging on, waiting for marriage, hoping they don't end up out on their ear. Why they don't walk at the first sign of marriage-aversion is beyond me, is a rubbish man really so much better than none.

storycubes · 03/08/2018 18:51

Education is the way.

Some people don't want that legal protection. For example a widow or divorcee with kids would have their kids as their next of kin, default inheritors etc. They may be perfectly happy with that but want to live with a partner. At present they can do that with no risk.

You can get married for £120. It isn't just a piece of paper and people need to understand that. It is a legal protection. It entitles you to half of the martial assets in case of divorce. It also (in many ways more
Importantly) makes you next of kin for your spouse.

If you are unmarried then by default you do not have any rights re making choices in the event of your partner becoming ill or incapacitated. Imagine if your partner ended up on life support. Their parents or kids would the ones with the legal right to make the choices. What if you have a toxic in law? Can you even imagine?

Teach your kids the importance of marriage.

kenandbarbie · 03/08/2018 19:00

Maybe it should work the opposite so that if you live together for a certain length of time you automatically get rights, unless you've signed an opt out.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 03/08/2018 19:09

Well I dont think they all know rainy. Some of them clearly do. Others I think just blunder along in the same fog of ignorance and CBA as the women, then happily find that the structures of society favour them much more on splitting (funny how often society happens to favour men's interests). And it's been less of a live issue than it might otherwise have been, because the benefits system has stepped in to do at least some of the heavy lifting over the past couple of decades as cohabitation rates have increased. Now that's being eroded we look at the issue afresh.

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 03/08/2018 19:12

Also the stuff about medical decisions is a bit out of date now. There's been a real change in the past decade.

reallybadidea · 03/08/2018 19:14

If you are unmarried then by default you do not have any rights re making choices in the event of your partner becoming ill or incapacitated.

See my previous post. Thanks for proving my point Grin

PaulDacreRimsGeese · 03/08/2018 19:18

I think people remember horror stories they've heard but don't factor in how long ago they were. There's also again a bit of English language country muddling there, aa there are apparently a few states in the US where it is like that so one reads of cases where the estranged but never divorced wife refuses to allow the partner of 10 years at the death bed, out of spite. But it doesn't pertain to the UK.

Graphista · 03/08/2018 19:22

Raise awareness by all means but I think the law in this respect, as it stands is fine. If anything clearer laws on the ending of a marriage are needed plus I think we need better no fault divorce options. I also think sahp need to be better protected.

Because for some people (not just men) it's preferable to live together without being married. If you now get yourself back on your feet, buy your own house which you want to leave to your DC if possible (depending if the capital isn't swallowed up in elderly care fees) meet a new man and live with him, then the change in law you're proposing means AT LEAST half the house YOU bought, even if he didn't contribute would be entailed away from your DC in the event of you passing before him. OR you could have to buy him out if you split up.

That's just 2 scenarios there are numerous others which are why people CHOOSE to NOT marry in order to protect assets.

Marriage is a legal contract which protects both parties and any children resulting. It's unacceptable to force people into a default marriage purely because they live together.

Also - lodgers could claim a relationship that didn't exist in order to gain assets as there'd be no proof you DIDN'T have a cohabitee relationship.

With a marriage there's the signing of the contract WITH WITNESSES and where the officiant has to gain express permission from those entering into the contract that they understand and do so WILLINGLY.

Under your proposal there's no such proof required.

Plus at what point should those rights be conferred? As soon as you move in together? Agree 1 month? 6 months?

Moving in with someone and having children with them is something I think many enter into FAR too lightly without even thinking about the impact on security, finances etc. Ditto becoming a sahp.

I married over 20 years ago, at a time when it was becoming distinctly 'uncool' with many saying with the stigma of unwed pregnancy etc largely gone it was unnecessary. I was lucky enough to have a relative who via their job saw regularly the devastating ramifications of separation on women in exactly your position.

She didn't advise me directly but after many years of hearing her thoughts on the subject I refused to live with my ex without getting married. I also was VERY careful with my contraception until after marriage. I'm SO glad I made that decision. Divorce is hellish but I would have been absolutely screwed if we hadn't been married (still was to an extent but nowhere near as much as if I'd not married him).

My sister - against my and others advice - moved in with her ex without being married, had DC, became a sahm and when they split was totally screwed. He bought the house they lived in so the mortgage was in his name. She gave him half the mortgage each month when she was working but gave him it in cash so no proof. So when they split he basically kicked her and the kids out, she had to move in with my parents for almost a year until she got straight again. She was ltd what benefits she could claim because she'd not been paying NI. Her finances were all tangled with his inc debts. He even denied the DC were his and because they weren't married that meant jumping through hoops to get child maintenance. He also kept the car which was in his name but again she'd contributed to - again cash no proof.

It makes SO many things not only in the event of separation clearer and more fair, but I also in my family have awful examples of how horrendous it is to sort certain things out in the event of sudden critical illness or bereavement. It affects things like if a dr can speak to you about your partner/spouse on life support, benefits, mortgage payments (even your right to stay in the home), pensions, funeral arrangements...

It's why lgbt people fought SO hard to get the same rights. I saw at close hand how dreadfully the partners of gay patients I'd treated were treated not only by the family of their sick or deceased partner but by the legalities around how much say they DIDN'T have on things like whether to turn off life support, organ donation, funeral wishes (I've even seen partners barred from funerals) BUT there are also gay people who don't want for a variety of reasons, for their partner to have the rights marriage confer.

What needs to be done is for it to be widely advertised that there is no such thing as "common law spouse" in the uk. That living with someone does NOT give you any rights. I'd like to see a public advertising campaign with case studies like yours shown and my sisters shown.

Nancydrawn - exactly! There's no amount of legal paperwork completely covers what getting married does, what is available costs a lot more than a quick trip to registry office - which is all that's really required to be married. Where I live it's just £125. Getting a lawyer to organise all the paperwork and legalities to cover most of what marriage covers (not all) would cost 1000's! Having children is CERTAINLY more expensive.

"Such as the huge cost now expected" - a big fancy wedding is not a necessity.

"I think that anyone age 16 or over who has consensual sex should be legally bound to support their own child 50%" totally agree. Current child maintenance regs are pitiful! This is the main way in which women are screwed over. It's appallingly badly regulated and enforced and the amounts set are an insult!

"The government is quite capable of working out how much someone really earns and ensuring they definitely pay when it comes to tax" exactly - that csa and now cms are within hmrc dept yet you have to be really stubborn and persistent to get them to check your ex's earnings, it should be linked as soon as there's a verified child involved.

While I'm very sorry you have been treated so badly op, ultimately at various points over those 20 years, you didn't remain a naive teen in all that time.

"how do you do that if your partner won't? Many men are clever and string women along for years, promising marriage" which is why if it was advertised and people especially girls were better educated in this aspect of law they'd know they needed to seriously consider certain decisions. Arm girls & women with the facts so they are less likely to allow themselves to be strung along.

I made it clear to my now ex I wouldn't stay with any man past 5 years without a commitment, and (seen this disaster on these boards many times) also made clear I wanted children before I was 30. I'd just turned 20 when we met so not particularly worldly wise.

Not an ultimatum just in a discussion we had quite early on so he knew my expectations and parameters. We got engaged after 3 years together, married within a year of engagement, agreed to ttc after a year of marriage (unfortunately dd didn't come along for several years due to various medical issues).

Romance is all well and good but people aren't mind readers, people need to be honest about what they want and when.

I'm in Scotland - show me where there's protection for cohabitants please peakpants? Because to my knowledge it doesn't exist in Scotland either.

From CAS:
"Irregular marriages
The term 'common-law' husband or wife is often used but has no legal standing. It is a common misunderstanding that a couple will have established a 'common-law marriage' after living together for a period of time. This is not the case. Common-law marriage does not exist in Scotland There was a type of irregular marriage called 'marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute' which could apply to couples who have lived together and were thought to be married. This was rarely used in practice and except for very particular circumstances was abolished by the Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006. Only irregular marriages established before 4 May 2006 will be recognised."

Ajaslipstick - women are mostly not forced to live with and bear children to men though. It's a choice. I agree some are making decisions based on poor information and that DOES need addressed, but it isn't hard to check the information.

Women do need to be empowered to not settle for second best, not give in to manipulation etc - but that's true in many areas of life.

Yes bumpity - I can see that one big advantage to changing the law on this would it would make those who have no intention of providing for children or truly supporting a partner would also resist cohabiting so they would be easier to spot! How would someone be able to prove their partners intention to marry/provide for them though? With no contract, no witnesses?

"I imagine messages, emails and letters etc would be pretty good evidence either way of what was said." Very easily falsified, writer can claim they said it under duress, I can set up an email address in my ex's name to send emails to my regular account free in a matter of mins, in less than an hour I could send myself emails promising all sorts. No - it needs to be a proper legal witnessed contract.

"it's unworkable because it relies on the word of two individuals with flawed memories and vested interests." Excellent summary

You're essentially tying yourself in knots to create something which already exists - with the parties involved having to acknowledge that. Bonkers!

"And yet UK law has made this work with regards to the majority of people's most valuable asset (their properties)" no it hasn't! There are legal contracts in place even if you're just renting - witnessed and signed.

I totally agree a 30 yr old man bring interested in a 16 yr old in that way is a huge red flag anyway. My dd is 17 if she was to start dating a man twice her age I'd be having serious words with both of them. Her - pointing out how creepy it is, how vulnerable she is. Him - wtf you playing at?!

Mookatron - totally agree it's applied unfairly wrt benefits. UC in particular has been a backwards step even being described by some DA agencies as 'an abusers charter' because a cohabiting or married couple claiming is classed as one claim and the money is only paid to one person. It's also a lot less than 2 single people claiming would get. An absolute gift to abusive addicts/also financially abusive.

Maisypops - yes they do that's why it's on the forms 'to include someone you live with as though you are married to them' if 2 housemates live together they don't have to claim as a couple, but if they're cohabiting they do.

Agree there's FAR too many people think "they'd never do that to me" so naive. There's also far too many don't consider the other disasters that can befall a family, critical illness & death in particular.

"Actually only partner but he is as good as my husband in the ways which matter" I'm stunned at that comment on this thread. What do you consider the ways which matter? Are finances no part of that? Inheritance rights? Tax issues? Without wishing harm on him are you set up to support him if he were to become critically ill or if you did? What about if either dies? Are you aware you wouldn't be entitled to bereavement payments? It's not just if you separate.

It's WHY on threads by women separating from their dp or dh or considering it are asked if he's dp or dh - because it massively and importantly affects the advice posters can give.

I say all this as a child of a shotgun wedding, then a very unhappy and abusive marriage and latterly a divorcée. Not being married would not have protected my mother and us (the DC) from the abuse if anything it would have given my father another hold over her (pre csa days he could have, if they weren't married, and if she'd left which at points she threatened to do, have denied paternity and cut us all off financially). Not being married to my ex would have left me up shit creek in the immediate aftermath of our split. Given both men were also army if either had died, being married would have meant the wives and children would receive support both practical and financial from the army. I've seen women cohabit with squaddies, become sahm cos the guy's working hours unpredictable plus for months at a time not home at all, he's sadly died and they're left with no income, no death benefits, facing possibly having to find £1000's to relocate 'home' as they can no longer afford the rent where they are, most camps are in the arse end of nowhere with very few jobs, in one case even made extremely unwelcome at the funeral.

"He is the children's father and hopefully he wont see they going without." 😂😂😂have you been on the relationships board? I've met very few men who don't have to be made to pay cm.

"I think they stick around delaying that outcome, hoping something changes." Hmm sunken costs fallacy?

"Just googling, it's been in the mainstream press as an issue many times." I'm 46 and even I don't look at the mainstream press any more! The women this needs targeted at are my dds age 17 or not much older BEFORE they're living with/pregnant by someone. She barely even uses Facebook now.

Oncewasneedy · 03/08/2018 19:25

Hey everybody, thanks so much for all the reply's. Apologies first of all for all the !!!!😳. I was a little fired up last night.
Thank you for all the understanding comments and I also the point of view of the opposing posters.
Just to give you some background, hopefully without outing.

The first 10 or so years were very much happy years. We had our first when I turned 20 and our other children quickly followed!! I was working right up until our first was born when we both decided that I would stay at home. My wages wouldn't even cover childcare costs so it just made sense. He already owned his own house when we met and a couple of years after we met he had an inheritance and paid of his mortgage in full. I would pay for shopping and things like that but the bills were paid by him, he said it didn't make sense for me to pay anything towards them because it was already sorted out with direct debit and he knew I didn't earn much.
He didn't have a fraction of what he has now in the monetary sense. But after we got the business back up and running it just went from strength to Strength.
I won't lie, we had a good thing for a long time, he went to work and I looked after the kids. It worked for us.
I do agree that changing the law would be a complicated affair however I really truly want more people- not just women, men also to be made more aware of what can happen if your not married. Every single person I have spoken to is so certain that I should have had some rights under that "common law marriage thing". I am a great big huge lesson to anybody in this situation. I was very naive and trusting and it wasn't until the cracks started to appear that I realised just how stupid I had been. Yes I'll admit it- I was stupid.
Please let me be the lesson to anyone in this situation.
Get comfortable with being uncomfortable and address this issue if you are facing this in your life! If your other half makes you feel like your being demanding or grabby for looking after your future then I can pretty much guarantee that all they are thinking about is number 1. I completely agree that marriage is romanticised because that is how I thought of it until it was too late. I wanted him to marry because he wanted to. I had an engagement ring on for 15 years and we even bought the wedding rings. I know now that he would never have married me.
On the SAHM thing, I trivialised everything I did in my earlier post but I can honestly say I have never worked so hard in my life as a SAHM. Going to work after the kids started school was like a holiday for me!!

OP posts:
CesiraAndEnrico · 03/08/2018 19:25

Found a recent, fairly SM friendly video. Cartoony so might work on the younger set, but DS refused to watch it so haven't tested it on an actual teenager.

Came out in November last year so up to date, but despite good production values has got low views considering the effort that must have gone into making it.

Would it be worth a concerted effort to share this, or something similar, to help melt away some of the misinformation out there ?

RoseAndRose · 03/08/2018 19:33

"Maybe it should work the opposite so that if you live together for a certain length of time you automatically get rights, unless you've signed an opt out."

No it bloody well shouldn't. Only those who have expressly consented should be legally tied.

Graphista · 03/08/2018 19:39

Another comment frequently trotted out on mn - no! You were only responsibly for half the childcare costs, if you looked at it that way AND took into account the career gap, missing promotions etc it's ABSOLUTELY worth going back to work.

"But after we got the business back up and running it just went from strength to Strength" - did you get any credit for that? Is he still running this business? For any reading in a similar situation I'd strongly advise not contributing directly to the business without official recognition in the form of AT LEAST an employment contract.

"Yes I'll admit it- I was stupid." Very brave and honest.

Oncewasneedy · 03/08/2018 19:59

Thanks Graphista
I'm not a confrontational person and I really struggled to assert my myself during our relationship. If I did I was just out for what I could get. I'll admit my failings just to show other people that crap like this does happen. Nobody falls in love expecting that person to later go back on everything they said. The lack of loyalty and character astounded me. I'm not the first and unfortunately I won't be the last!

OP posts:
augustboymummy17 · 03/08/2018 20:03

I'm sure there is something is place if you can prove you have been paying towards the house etc get some legal advice xx

sunglasses123 · 03/08/2018 20:11

Once. Very well done for being so honest. Yes, you have been naive but honestly if you take this as a life lesson I am sure you will be fine. I was the one who said surely he won’t see his kids going without. Shame on him if he does.

Ps: please go and see a solicitor for some proper advice. Could you come back and tell us how you get on. Don’t speak to friends etc. Proper legal advice based on your circumstances so that you know what your options are

MaisyPops · 03/08/2018 20:17

Oncewasneedy
OP I don't doubt you worked your backside off and offered a lot to the family unit.

I think you were strung along and it suited a man who aged 30 wanted a 16 year old (which is a red flag in my opinion but what is done is done). He seemed quite happy with the set up because he knew he could walk and be safe with his assets.

It sucks and you've every right to be annoyed with him, but you also need tonsee how important it is for every woman to wise up and take responsibility for their own security.

As there are children involved, push for as much as you can. Other than that It's awful but live and learn (and spread the word every time you see or hear other women putting themselves into precarious situations).

Oncewasneedy · 03/08/2018 20:59

Hi to both August and sunglasses
I did take legal advice just after I left him from 2 legal firms- one of which the big boss so to speak has campaigned about this very issue many times.
Both said run with what you have and what he will give you- £20.00 more than the CMS calculator suggests. I did have savings that I would have used if they thought it was worth it but I found out the names of his solicitors and was promptly told they were bulldogs! It just wasn't worth the financial and emotional cost. Their words.

And to Maisy- yes I agree. I needed to wise up a long time ago. By the time I realised what he was about I knew I could never marry him. For 1 I really would have been marrying just for money. I'm not that person. But for 2 I knew we weren't going to last. We had become very different people from when we first met.
I wasn't completely stupid in the fact that when I realised he was holding all the cards and more so that he knew it, I did begin saving every penny I could. That money helped me rent a house and furnish it.
I'm not in debt and I have savings but I can't touch them without being penalised so the car repairs will be done over a couple of months. I'm not a victim I'm absolutely thriving truth be told. But sometimes if I think about it all too much I do feel I twitch of bitterness in side me- OK OK ALOT! BUT for most of the time, say 95% I'm all good. I'm grateful I got out when I did, I'm grateful for all my family and friends who helped me and I'm grateful for getting some qualifications under my belt. I'm doing well in my work and there is real room for progression!! I'm showing my daughters and my son that anything is possible given time and working at it.

Again THANKYOU to all who have commented on this post. Whether I wanted to hear some things or not I truly value every opinion. This really has been a life lesson and I only hope by posting on here that it gives someone else pause for thought before they put there gut instincts aside for the sake of peace or thinking it could never happen to them!!

OP posts:
QueenoftheNights · 03/08/2018 21:01

. Nobody falls in love expecting that person to later go back on everything they said.

Once I feel sorry for you on the one hand but you do seem a tad naive. Given that 40% of marriages fail and even more live-in relationships break up, I think most people enter into a relationship aware it could fall apart.

Maybe the fact you met at 16 and had no previous relationship experience was part of the problem? By the time I was almost 30 I'd been jilted (to someone I'd met at 16) had 3 long term relationships and knew that people can change their minds.

I'm not sure if you ARE being totally honest with us and yourself even now, and trying to cover up your choice with a 'Oh I never thought this could happen'. It happens all the time.

The best you can do it teach your children to support themselves and not repeat these mistakes.

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