telling him it's emotional abuse....

[blueseagreensea]

My marriage is in pieces. I have mentioned some of the issues on MN before using another name. We are struggling with the fallout from his "affair" with a colleague. Not full blown but definitely emotional and kissing and now over. But they still work together.
But this situation has just brought everything to a head. Namely the way he treats me. So I have had years of it - emotional abuse and angry tempers involving punching of walls and household items / smashing items. Never hit me and i believe he never would. He pushed me once and said "feel like killing you!"
Lots of this several years ago but still recent / very recent tempers / swearing at me / emotional stuff.
When I mention all this and say I don't like it this is his response ... "Why mention stuff from years ago?" " you don't forgive". "I don't do it often." "you saying i'm a violent husband?!" "I'm not that bad"
Yes of course he can be very loving and good but not all the time. He often says "you don't know what goes on in other homes" "I've said I'm sorry".
He makes me feel guilty with some of these comments about forgiveness. These comments also apply to the affair situation which I'm struggling to get over. Some days I say ok I forgive / I will try to move on. Then I change my mind especially when he is horrible to me and now he says I'm being unfair to him. I keep trying to be honest with him. One part of me wants to just walk away completely.
We started couples counselling but because I disclosed some of his behaviours they will no longer do joint sessions. He has just found out about this and he is upset and cross.
It has helped me to be more assertive and straight with him. I have only recently talked about him being controlling and now I am saying more. I still haven't said "emotional abuse" but I am trying.
The counsellor and I have suggested he has individual counselling about his behaviours but he still isn't fully sure. He says he will go because I've asked him but then in a row he will say the opposite... "I've forced him to go!" He also says what will it be about and what's the point? He just doesn't seem to get it.
Have I been a fool to put up with his behaviour for so long. Why does he make me feel guilty for "Bringing up the past?" Please tell me that it is not normal to tell your partner to f off and call them an f... sh ... bla bla (sorry for swearing)? I feel so anxious when he starts and so resentful about it all. So many posts I read on MN are so similar to my situation and they have helped me tremendously.

@TatianaLarina - wow, I've played that role in the opera!

/end threadjack

I agree; tbh I think I would present it as a fait accompli. Whatever OP does, he will play the victim and it will be her fault.

blueseagreensea This man wont change. Why would he? He knows exactly that hes being abusive, does he treat others outside the home this way ? Of course not. He doesn't care what you think, how you feel or about you at all.

I know its very hard, I had such a partner. At the beginning I adored him, I thought he was wonderful, amazing. At the beginning he was very kind, gentle thoughtful and never raised his voice. 5 years later I was suicidal, deep in debt (he lived off me) and desperate. I know what its like

I got the courage to kick his sorry ass out and 2 years later I look 10 years younger (really I do) and am so so much happier.

Life really is much to short to put up with this shit. Just leave him. he is so horrible to you. ... please

He just doesn't get it at all.

It sounds like you are waiting for him to finally have an epiphany and agree that yes, he is being unreasonable,abusive and violent. That suddenly he will see the truth, apologise and change. Without sounding too blunt, this is highly unlikely. You may never "make him see". Why hang around for something that may never happen? Use the counselling to get yourself together and get free! X

Yes maybe some truth in that. But I think I do realise he is not going to change. Discussed individual counselling again and now he says "he doesn't need it/ what exactly will it be about? / He can sort things himself / he doesn't need to go" !
He just about admitted he had temper issues but as usual played it down and said me going to counselling has made it worse!
He isn't going to change.
It's just difficult to walk away from something I have invested so much in and it has been a gradual process for me.
That's how it seems.

Of course counselling has made it worse FOR HIM. He doesn't care it might make things better for YOU because he fears you will finally get what a twat he is and leave him with no one to treat like shite. He doesn't care what makes you stronger and happier. This is something YOU need to get. At the moment you are throwing good money after bad, because you are still hoping he will 'see the light'. Why would he see that his abuse is ruining your happiness and your life when you haven't really accepted that either. Keep up the counselling. Be prepared for manipulative behaviour as you grow stronger: promises to change, tears, declarations of love. He will try anything not to lose his emotional punching bag: except accept responsibility and real change in his behaviour.

Thanks.
We had an initial Relate session then i went on my own and continue to do so.
They said unable to offer couples counseling after what I told them.
I recently told him why and that's where we are up to now with him being angry about it all saying it's made situation worse. But yes I'm getting stronger after all these years but it doesn't come naturally to me.

Ex went to solo counselling and it made it worse as it wasn't specifically abusers related.

It made him more of a victim as the sessions were about exploring his feelings and focussing on his hurts, rather than challenge his thinking.
Abuse is caused by his thinking, he does not expect you to challenge him which is why he will use every tactic to silence you.

If you read "the verbally abusive relationship" by Patricia Evans it will help you understand a little more.

I would agree 100% with others to plan to leave quietly. I was up front and it allowed Ex time to hide money and shop for a vicious legal team. I stupidly thought we were going to be amicable.

What was his childhood like?

As far as I know and going by what he says his childhood was ok but I often wonder about it.
I question why why why is he like this? I really do wonder why

He just doesn't get it at all.

He does get it. He gets it completely. However he will never, ever admit to you that he gets it, because being the way he is, calling you names, being an absolute vile shit and then saying he disn't mean it, works perfectly well for him. It works - you have never left him because of this. So it works really well.

How can you know that he understands exactly what he is doing? -That is very simple. He doesn't do it to his boss. He doesn't do it to his bank manager. He doesn't do it to his mates in the pub. He doesn't do it to anyone except you. That is how you know.

And you DO know, inside you know very very well, but you are still buying into the idea that you need his agreement and his permission to be right.

Why he is the way he is is NOT your problem and you are hiding from the truth by going down that road. Why are you the way YOU are? What happened in YOUR childhood that has made you have such low self-esteem? What happened to the lovely, happy young woman who has thrown her life away on a piece of shit like this? What do YOU want for the rest of your life?

blue

What did you learn about relationships when growing up?. Is this the sort of relationship you envisaged?

He is the ways he is for all sorts of reasons and none of them are anything to do with you as a person. You are not his rescuer or saviour here and nor should you be his emotional punchbag any longer. You do not have to waste any more emotional energies on him wondering why he is the ways he is; he is not going to tell you and you are not going to find out. He saw something within you he could and indeed has exploited to his own ends.

Re your comment:-

"it's just difficult to walk away from something I have invested so much in and it has been a gradual process for me".

Read up on the sunken costs fallacy in relationships, that sort of thinking above re investing so much into it is precisely that and that has also caused you to make poor relationship decisions.

People get bogged down by focusing on their sunk costs.
There are two ways to understand this process, both involving avoidance. One is an avoidance of disappointment or loss when something doesn’t work out. When a relationship doesn’t succeed, especially after a long period, especially after many shared experiences and especially after developing a hope that the relationship would be a good one, it is a loss. It is a loss of what might have been and an acknowledgement that a part of one’s life has been devoted to this endeavour.

Another angle to evaluate is that focus on “sunk cost” creates a distraction from one’s inner truth. The sentence often goes like, “I’ve already invested to much, so I can’t notice my thoughts and feelings that are telling me to end or change this relationship.”

This is a type of insidious defense against noticing yourself. You enter into a neglectful relationship with yourself which divorces you from your inner thoughts and the quiet feelings that might guide you in your life. In other words, thinking about what already has been may prevent you from deciding what you want your life to be.

The key is to clear away the distractions to rational and emotional clarity. Getting stuck in your “sunk cost” prevents you from this clarity, whether in your relationships or your investments.

he blames you because he is a useless excuse for a human being who wont see himself for what he is.

make it not your problem by dumping him. You dont deserve this and he deserves to be flushed from your life like all turds.

the best to you.

Sadly I didn't have a great childhood and yes it probably has contributed to my low self esteem.
I was determined to have a different relationship and family life but it hasn't worked out like that.
The "sunk cost" theory makes sense and clearly applies to me.
I feel totally depressed but am still hanging on and determined to do what I want now.

I think I spent the first few years trying and hoping to change him.
Then I just put up with it and was so busy bringing up children. Then the "give up phase" and now the "that's it / I'm leaving" phase.
The counselling and MN has made me re-evaluate everything... What the * have I being doing all these years?!

When I mention all this and say I don't like it this is his response ... "Why mention stuff from years ago?" " you don't forgive". "I don't do it often." " "I'm not that bad"
Yes of course he can be very loving and good but not all the time. He often says "you don't know what goes on in other homes" "I've said I'm sorry".
Bloody hell OP, your post has helped me. These comments are just like my DH. It's obviously a pattern of men like this. Anything to avoid facing up to their own behaviour (whilst simultaneously trying to make believe that they have).

Yes and blaming us @thestarsatnight (I love your name btw).. apparently I'm so unforgiving and "not the type to forgive"! This is what he says to me along with other stuff. The ironic thing is I actually think I've been more than forgiving year on year! He says some unbelievable things that really hurt!
Earlier today he told me to "grow up" when I asked him not to swear.

Yet again I've read so much on Mumsnet today about men emotionally abusing women!!!!

The ironic thing is I actually think I've been more than forgiving year on year!

Yes, Yes OP, just like my DH! He accuses ME of being determined to destroy our relationship. I mean, I've been the one wasting a decade of my life trying to save it, trying to understand him, trying to communicate with him, thinking it was all my responsibility to find the right way to get through to him, then it would all be alright, feeling sorry for him for his defects! What a sap I've been! And yes, OP. like you I think my childhood (my relationship with my Dad) was so bad that it primed me to not realise how bad my relationship with DH was.
I wanted to avoid marrying someone like my Dad but I did!

Ouch! Yes painful but all true for me too. I feel for you I really do and I hope things improve for you.

OP. please please please stop trying to understand his behaviour.

It doesn't matter why he does it. You are trying to understand why someone would treat someone they love so badly and find a reason for it other than they're just a horrid person.

Please stop thinking about it. Do something. Kick him out. Or pack bags and move. You are not a tree, if you don't like where you are, move.

Please please do this. The moment you have him out of your life you will wonder why the hell you didn't do it years ago. Promise.

Thanks Blue, things will improve. Like you I have finally seen the light and realised I have to get out. It will probably be a long term plan for me as I have no job. And realistically, I probably have to stay for the childcare support from DH so I can retain. But I have a plan for retraining and getting a job that I can support me and the kids on. It feels good to have a plan, It really does.
It'll feel so great when we are free OP. No more stress, no more tension, no more frustration, no more crap. It'll be great! : )

blueseagreensea and thestarsatnight - my DH is the same as yours... it's my fault for being too sensitive/demanding/expecting too much. We're having counselling and last week went through my family history - it was hard, there's been a lot of tough stuff. But it made me realise I have the right to feel like I do (sad I didn't already isn't it?) And that made me feel stronger - not that I know what I'll do still. The guilt I feel at the idea of breaking up the family is overwhelming. It's his turn this week. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with - I reckon he was a Little Prince who was always indulged...

I also recommend Patricia Evans. I read the one already mentioned - and one called - The Verbally Abusive Man: Can He Change. The answer is usually no - but there was lots in it that was familiar. She also has a theory that these men have a 'dream woman' and it's effectively a part of them (a bit weird but I'm trying to get my head round it!!) That's why they think they know what you think - and if you contradict or criticise it's impossible for them to deal with it... I don't know if the 'why' really makes any difference though...

Good luck to everyone with summer holidays coming up... I thought we might not be together by the time ours came round, but we are. It's not going to be easy.

Thank you @namechanged77 and I will check out the book. Glad you are feeling a bit stronger.
Sadly I don't think these men will change and that also seems to be the general consensus.

Gosh, you've written so much about him and why he might do the things he does to you. That's a hell of a lot of mental energy.

I have no idea of what you want from life.

I can see you putting huge effort into analysing him and his behaviour. What a waste.

The only way to fix this situation is to analyse your own behaviour to identify why you put up with being abused so that you can make the abuse stop. This will only happen by leaving him or making use of the space under the patio.

Notice when you start analysing his behaviour. Stop. Think about what you did instead. Think about what you want.

Btw thinking "I want him to be/say/do" does not count!

Have thoughts and plans which do not feature him changing in anyway whatsoever.

Ok I hear you and I am working on this. I think a pattern of behaviour develops over time -but now I can see more clearly.