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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Marriage counsellor has just made me angry- what should I do?

127 replies

badsurname · 14/06/2018 20:50

Went for first couples counselling session with stbxh this evening. We have been separated for nearly a year following me catching him in an affair.

I realise she was trying to be even but I felt attacked for the whole session. She basically said our marriage was clearly crap before (it wasn't ) and he agreed with her. While he may have agreed if he thinks back to when his mind was fuelled by lust and irritation at having to be separated from ow, if he thought back only six months more we were good and had been for 16 years. I don't think I am willing to go if she is going to require me to accept half the blame for his inability to keep his dick in his pants so what should I do;

A) request a new counsellor- it's provided by employee assistance programme.
B) go, but be clear with her next time that our marriage may not have been perfect but it was pretty damn good before he crapped all over it.
C) go but change the agenda to amicably divorcing and clearing the air rather than potentially reconciling so she stops defending him so much.
D)give up and try again in another year when I am less angry?!

I am so pissed off. It didn't help that he has the lurgy and has been "wfh" while ive been working hard in London, so she clearly didn't believe me that he was a workaholic who left me holding the baby while he was away all week working and shagging.

Please be gentle. I'm really upset

OP posts:
CristalTipps · 15/06/2018 18:08

he might have had an affair but if you can't accept half of the responsibilities of the reasons why

Because sometimes there are no reasons why beyond "new woman, new body, new pussy = exciting!!" Many people in happy marriages still cheat just because they can and because they like to. And asking their blameless spouses to accept partial responsibility for that is rubbing salt in the wound - with vigour.

moodance · 15/06/2018 18:13

I think it is important to accept and understand the reason (s) why the affair occurred; if you want Closure and to move forward.

If you can't acknowledge the reasons aka accept what happened how can you move on?

PandaPieForTea · 15/06/2018 18:37

The problem with with using counselling to accept and understand the reasons why the affair happened is that you can’t really be sure you’ve got the real reason and not a post hoc rationalisation, subconsciously designed to make the one who had the affair sound more reasonable.

badsurname · 15/06/2018 18:46

He himself has said unprompted that the reasons why the affair happened were a) ego and sense of entitlement /self absorption on his part. B) opportunity and a genuine belief he could have it as a separate bubble that wouldn't affect his home life and that he really could have his cake and eat it too.

I wouldnt and didn't say we had a perfect marriage, but I did say it was a good one. Yes compromises were made, yes we had two preschool children which makes life hard for any couple. But we were best friends and a partnership and we were in it for the long haul after we made it through the early years until he had the opportunity for some extracurricular excitement and made a terrible choice to pursue that and lie about it.

However, I can remember and understand the pull. I have experienced that feeling of giddy lust/limerance/ butterflies. Not in an affair but still I understand. And a boring comfortable going through the early years parenting trenches marriage can't compete with that. Unfortunately he was wrong in thinking it would be possible to keep that from affecting the marriage as the only time I would ever have said our marriage wasn't good is when he was too busy lying and deceiving and the stress it caused him to live a double life started making him both spend less time at home and be an arse when he was there.

Further evidence of the fact that it was a good marriage lies in the fact that when caught he immediately regretted what he had done and wanted to stay and ended things with OW. If it was a bad marriage why wouldnt he have run off with her? If anyone has done a pick me dance it is him. I kicked him out and we haven't been together since.

Ultimately I would not even be considering the remote possibility of going back if I thought it was bad. Why would i put myself through that? As far as I'm concerned the affair and his behaviour during and as a result of it are what we need to work through and was the point of the counselling. To help me get past the anger. I accept the marriage wasn't perfect. But i do not and will not accept 50% off the blame for him fucking up. I accept that I was complicit in setting up the conditions that led to him having the opportunity. But I did so because I trusted him not to take it! And without trust what is the point of a marriage so I am not going to apologize for that!

OP posts:
Loopytiles · 15/06/2018 19:13

You sound pretty clear on what happened, and what you want him to say and do before you’ll take him back. Has he been saying/doing those things?

moodance · 15/06/2018 19:16

Sounds like you have great insight ... and you understand the reasons why it occurred... you don't like it ... but you understand the reasons and know he is a good person who enjoys his ego stroking. I am wondering if you were so open with your thoughts at counselling... because I would expect the counsellor to want to hear these words from you.

I don't think it's going to be easy but I believe you will get through this.

ThisisSparta · 15/06/2018 19:21

OP do you want a bit of brutal honesty?

Do you think you got annoyed at the counsellor for not getting the responses you wanted to hear out of STBX? Did you have a ‘script’ in mind that would result in him begging forgiveness which would give you the justification that you could allow yourself to give it another go?

SandyY2K · 15/06/2018 19:50

I think it's wrong that a counsellor would say this, unless he or you were saying anything that led her to believe it wasn't a good marriage.

The counsellor isn't the expert on your marriage. It's good you've asked to be reassigned.

badsurname · 15/06/2018 19:58

Do you think you got annoyed at the counsellor for not getting the responses you wanted to hear out of STBX? Did you have a ‘script’ in mind that would result in him begging forgiveness which would give you the justification that you could allow yourself to give it another go?

No, not at all Grin. He did and has begged forgiveness repeatedly. And yesterday he was voluntarily saying that he thought he did it because of ego and because he had made director and was getting offers from a young woman, and he felt like he was somehow entitled. ( I didn't realise they give you a mistress along with he car allowance! Hmm He was doing fine and we were doing fine until she started drawing her own conclusions and making statements about how our marriage hadn't been good and he didn't disagree with her. To be fair I didn't disagree with her either, I just started to feel attacked and got upset. And then even more upset because he didn't defend our marriage to her when I was too shocked and choked up to say anything. And then she started misquoting me and showed she had obviously judged him to be the victim by saying things like I should have let him help with the children and change a nappy. I was incredulous given he changed plenty of nappies and helped plenty, and what I had actually said was that I had let him sleep though the night when the babies were small because I was breastfeeding and didn't think we should both be sleep deprived, especially since he had to go to work! So then she moved on to how he looked unwell and was he run down? He laughed because he had a cold but I really think it clouded her analysis of the situation. We're both telling her that he was a high flying city boy who went out drinking instead of coming home because it was fun and felt he had earned an affair along with the expensed champagne "because he worked hard" and had made it to the top of the food chain. But those words, coming from him, (and we hadn't talked about it before hand, he came up with it on his own) apparently didn't fit with the fact that he was under the weather and had clearly been at home all day so she started suggesting the poor soul was run down .

I wasn't angry with him in there because it wasn't his words that upset me, it was her misconceived conclusions. But afterwards I realised that I felt he should have stood up for us instead of going along with what she was claiming from her own personal perspective and in contradiction to what we were both saying.

I can fully imagine that he felt like all his Christmases had come at once- he had been asking me to go for many months, id finally agreed, he had been to IC and worked out why he had done it and was ready to properly open up about it. But when he tried he was told not to worry himself because she was certain it really was at least half my fault, without even gathering any of the history!

OP posts:
ThisisSparta · 15/06/2018 20:13

Do you think you are seeing a side of STBX that you haven’t really seen before ? Passing the blame off into you, and playing up to the counsellor etc?

I think if you felt attacked and blamed by the counsellor (facilitated by STBX I wonder?) then you should request another. (Well FWIW as I mentioned upthread I think you should sack marriage counselling altogether and get yourself some ‘you’ counselling alone)

KurriKurri · 15/06/2018 20:17

Counsellor sound hopeless - no surprised you're angry, I would be too.
Just about all men who have affairs like to rewrite history to justify thier own shitty behaviour - takes some of the guilt off them.

The thing is, even if you didn;t have a happy marriage, it's not ok to go off and shag someone else while you are married to another person. If you are even a half way decent person you end the relarionship you have before you mebark on anaother one.

And the question they usually can;t answer is 'if things were so bad, why didn;t you leave ages ago, why did you have to wait until you found some other woman who was willing to fiddle about in your pants before you suddenly realised you weren't happy in your marriage?'

Counsellor sound like an idiot, and your STBXH sounds like one too. I'd start filing for divorce - you haven't caused the heartache, he has. from experience I can tell you that once you take control, file for divorce, sort the practical stuff and get him out of your space, you will feel much stronger and much less as if you are in some kind of awful freefall. Flowers

WineGummyBear · 15/06/2018 20:27

He has an affair and you are feeling guilty that you are breaking up the marriage? Did I read that right.

Is he trying to spin it that way? Fuck that! Talk about having your cake and eating it!

There's one person who should feel guilty here and it ain't you.

Whether your relationship was happy before the affair is a bit moot. Because if you are not happy in a marriage, you say something. That's what you do. How the fuck does it justify an affair?

OP. You are awesome. I second the suggestions above to seek individual counseling. Time to look out for you.

raisedbyguineapigs · 15/06/2018 20:38

I may be mistaken but it doesn't sound like HE was at the coalface of early parenthood. It sounds like you were, and he was carrying on as normal. I'd imagine it's much easier to compartmentalise when you are sleeping in a luxury hotel, squaffing champagne than it is if you have to get home to give a toddler a bath. Quite difficult to use parenthood as an excuse as to why your marriage is crap when you're not doing any!

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 15/06/2018 20:44

Question - suppose the counsellor (who sounds totally crap in my opinion) is right - it was a crap marriage.

And so there is nothing worth saving. Absolutely no chance whatsoever it would work. Better to end now whilst vaguely amicable and kids are young so easier to get over it.

So you can end the marriage guilt free.

How would that make you feel?

Sad? Or relieved?

Because if you mainly feel relieved then perhaps you should make the most of the opportunity this counsellor has handed you on a plate.

On the other hand if you are mainly sad then maybe there is something to save.

badsurname · 15/06/2018 21:15

I would be sad. That is why I was so upset last night and today. It would mean the whole of my adult life had been a lie. That I had been delusional. And I really don't think I was, I think he had a chance for some fun and took it.

And no, guineapigs he wasn't at the coal face of early parenting, he was getting his beauty sleep in hotels and eating out on expenses. But that was an agreement that we as a partnership made for the benefit of the family. It wasnt the best arrangement with hindsight but it is what we decided to do under the specific set of circumstances we found ourselves with ( him with higher earning capacity, me offered redundancy payout straight after second mat leave). It involved trust and we talked about it frequently and he assured me it was for the best. It is only when I found out, and now that things have massively changed post separation (- I have been able to go back to work, he has been somehow able to work from home and do school runs, all of which were previously deemed completely impossible) that I am angry about being stuck at home with the drudgery of parenting small children and putting my career on hold while he was out living it up. When I thought he was simply fulfilling his side of the bargain in the breadwinner sense, and that it was all a necessity I wasn't angry about it. Once I found out he'd really been fucking someone else while I was dealing with chicken pox/norovirus/whatever, that did make me angry. Because that wasn't the terms of our partnership and the sacrifices i had made!

OP posts:
ittakes2 · 15/06/2018 21:22

I agree that you might find it beneficial to have some counselling on your own first. You called him your soon to be ex husband in the first sentence...but then talked about reconciling with him towards the end. You have a right to be livid. You need to get some control back. Get some counselling for yourself and be clear on what you want and your boundaries. Good luck.

growingseeds · 16/06/2018 02:54

I'd leave him And make sure I got everything I was entitled to. Sorry for
what you you are going through xxx

mathanxiety · 16/06/2018 05:22

That is why I was so upset last night and today. It would mean the whole of my adult life had been a lie. That I had been delusional. And I really don't think I was, I think he had a chance for some fun and took it.

You can refuse to believe his version of events and end the marriage.
You can rightly judge him harshly for the deception involved in the cheating.

What you did for those years was real and it was honourable.

He chose to kick you in the face in the worst possible way at the counselling session, and you need to take that betrayal you suffered this week as a separate incident of extremely poor choice on the part of your H. While related to the cheating in the past, it is separate and occurred very recently.

You really have to take into account that this man agreed with the marriage counsellor's version in trying to piece together an accurate picture of who exactly this man is that you are dealing with.

That your H is prepared to agree to the idea that your marriage was crap for many years is the current reality of your marriage - this doesn't relate to the past. It is part of the present, an example of the sort of behaviour he is capable of even when he knows his marriage, his family life and that of his children, and his home are all on the line.

Your anger is perfectly valid - the scale of the role you thought you were playing out of necessity now appears not to have been cast in stone; he could perhaps have compromised and the two of you could have shared the parenting more. Worse, you find now that while you were doing all that you did - mucking through inescapable reality day in/night out for the sake of the family - your H was behaving in a disgustingly shallow way and seemingly not at all committed to the vision you though the was committed to.

He snuck around buying me a diamond necklace for christmas, asking advice of my friends, to thank me for being so supportive during a difficult lengthy promotion process, then a few months later started shagging someone else!
I think this is a highly significant incident. I think it shows something about his character that you need to take seriously.

You need to consider this in a different light from the one evident in your post. The timing is not really the issue. The issue is a deeper problem.

The public display of devotion in front of your friends was a calculated performance designed to make them wonder if you were an ungrateful/ paranoid /crazy bitch if you ever confided in them that you had a problem with him. It was designed to make them think he was Mr Besotted and highly unlikely to cheat and on top of that, a man who had succeeded in a long promotion process - maybe a stealth way of attracting the attention of some of your friends too.

This diamond necklace incident is the work of someone who plays and manipulates people, and will not stop.

I strongly suspect that your H was cheating on you for longer than you believe he was, and with more women than you think were involved. He seems to be a man who gets a kick out of manipulating people (see the marriage counselling as an example) and who needs the adulation of women, the thrill of conquest whether emotional or sexual.

You are looking at all the ingredients of a narcissistic serial cheater.

Nellia · 16/06/2018 07:04

You say if you didnt have a good marrige you wouldnt think about reconciling.

Have you ever considered that If you had a good marriage and there was no reason beyond opportunity that counselling wont help with reconciliation.

I say this because if there is nothing to fix no issues to work on to ensure it doesnt happen again besides you putting him on a constant leash the whole exercise is pointless.

Marriage counselling is set up to help a couple recognise points of divergence that could re-emerge and develop the communication skills to nip them in the bud going forward.

Marriage counselling cant fix selfish, egotistical or an individuals pathology unless the counselling is psycotherapy and that would take a very long time and is usually on an individual basis.

The fact that he didnt go off with the other woman isnt a sign of anything. For some men the ow is dessert while the wife is dinner so they cant see a life without the first but reacon it would be better with both.

Youve moved forwards with your life since the split is moving backwards really the only opportunity open to you?

Nellia · 16/06/2018 07:10

Duh that should say see a life without the secondBlush.

Anyway i hope you are feeling better about your choices today. Reconciliation is not the easy path people think it is you have to be pretty determined to walk down it.

swingofthings · 16/06/2018 07:23

badsurname, I'm wondering whether the issue that has led your OH to go elsewhere is a feeling that he wasn't listened to. Because that's how you come across here. It sounds like you are not prepared to hear his reasons and dismissing them because from your perspective, they are not true.

The reality is that your OH is telling you that there were issues in the marriage. Maybe he is just using this as an excuse to justify his affair, but maybe he isn't and the reality is that if you are both there to try to save the marriage at a last resort, it is worth considering that indeed, it might be true that it was frustration, loneliness, and a desperate need to be heard that led him to it.

The point of joint counselling is to facilitate listening to the other's person perspective with a 'referee' in between. Of course the referee might not do their job properly, but wherever you go, you'll still get a counsellor that will encourage you to listen to your OH's as much as him listening to you. It might be that the first session was about you listening to him and the next one will be him listening to you.

Any reconciliation will only be possible if you are BOTH prepared to listen to the other person's perspective, otherwise, you remain stuck in trying to prove to yourself and them that you are the one and only victim and that things will only get better by them changing to suit your needs, which rarely works in these situations, at least certainly not longer term.

Shoxfordian · 16/06/2018 07:25

It's interesting that he actually can work from home and do school runs now it's necessary; he just didn't want to do it before. Maybe you should address that as well? The reasons he cheated also show his character, it wasn't because he fell madly in love with her, it was because he weighed up the odds of getting caught and decided it was worth it. Sounds like a shit to me.

shiklah · 16/06/2018 07:29

I had the same experience at relate. It made me absolutely raging angry and I still don’t understand why. DH was angrier than me when he realised that the woman was demonising me and not helping st all. We managed to get sorted out without a help in the end and it really unblalanced my faith in professionals. About a year later I read ‘the psychopath test’ by Jon Ronson who found that you get lots of sociopaths working as psychologists and counsellors because they seek to gain control over peoples life and emotional state and enjoy the turmoil. Made a lot of sense to me after my experience at relate.

I hope you find peace with your decision soon Flowers

northernlights0710 · 16/06/2018 11:38

I agree with everything mathanxiety has said.

Many years ago, I was in individual counselling after my ex cheated. My anger and attitude were similar to yours.

The counsellor said to me: "Just because you think A, B and C were reality doesn't mean to say that he does, or should, think the same.

"Why would you want to convince someone of something he doesn't want to be convinced of?

"Why would you want to try and save a relationship with someone who doesn't know what they want?"

FWIW, if you've made it through a year without him, you've made great progress - you've survived - you and the DCs. Personally, I would not want to "go back" on that progress - giving him another chance would seem a retrograde step in terms of YOUR progress, personal development, happiness and wellbeing.

What if he does it again? From his attitude in counselling it sounds as though he would. Sorry.

Next time it might be even worse, and you might be even more devastated and angry.

I don't think this man is going to be faithful to you. I'm not saying that all rich and successful men cheat, but in this case I think his money and success have given him a sense of entitlement that has nothing to do with you.

He needs to grow up, and that could take decades.

I honestly and truly think you'd be better off getting him out of your life for good and looking forward, building a new future for you and the DCs that has nothing to do with him.

It took me four years to get over my cheating ex. One day I woke up and didn't feel angry anymore. I had felt so angry for so long that it shook my bones daily. It's 25 years ago but I still remember that feeling of liberation. The freedom of not being consumed by anger anymore. Of being able to move forward free of anger, fear, suspicion and resentment.

It will be hard for you, OP. But I think that one day you will look back and be glad you did this now. You'll also see your OH much, much more clearly and in a much less romantic light.

All the best, whatever you decide.

TatianaLarina · 16/06/2018 11:43

it really unblalanced my faith in professionals

Counsellors and therapists have widely differing kinds and levels of training.

You can qualify to be a Relate counsellor in 3 years of 10 weekends a year. Although I think you can practice after one year.

Very different from psycotherapy training which can take 7 years.