Gaslighting - is it intentional?

[AlwaysIroning]

Just discovered (via MN) the term gaslighting, my DH has been messing with my head for years, I had just put it down to his age + low IQ, but now starting to wonder if it's all a bit more sinister and manipulative. This is an example of what happened tonight (one of two incidents actually). Background: I was in a park carpark today, a young lady came into the carpark to find her car damaged by fire and what looked to be the charred remains of a vehicle next to her car.

Me: So that car that was damaged by fire in the car park today, I saw on Twitter that there was a massive car fire and the fire brigade came to put it out. I would have expected that the fire brigade would have taken the registration number of the lady’s car, passed it on to police so that they could inform her of what happened so she could inform her insurance company.
DH: Not necessarily, the reg plate was probably burned out.
Me: No it wasn’t, I saw it.
DH: But you said it was completely burned out.
Me: No, that was the other car, the car I’m talking about was next to it and damaged by the fire.
DH: But you were talking about the burned out car.
Me: No I wasn’t, I was talking about the damaged car.
DH: But you didn’t make that clear.
Me: I told you that there was nothing left of the burned out car, it’s the car that was damaged that I’m concerned about.
DH: You were talking about the burned out car.
Me: (increasingly frustrated but not raising my voice) No I wasn’t, my concern was with the woman who returned to her car to find it damaged by fire, if that happened to me I would expect that the fire brigade would have passed on details to the police so that they could contact me with all the information I need to inform my insurance company.
DH: Was there a crime committed?
Me: Well I don’t know what happened.
DH: But you said there was a crime committed.
Me: No I didn’t.
DH: You said the police should be involved therefore a crime was committed.
Me: No I didn’t, I said that the fire brigade could have informed the police so that the owner of the damaged vehicle was made aware and she could call her insurers with full details. That is what I would expect if I was the owner of the vehicle.
DH: If it was a shed that set on fire and damaged the vehicle, would you seek to sue the owner of the shed?
Me: Well, I would expect someone to inform me about the damage to my vehicle caused by a fire that wasn’t anything to do with me and if the fire brigade attended then I would expect them to inform the relevant authorities.
DH: You’re saying a crime has been committed, but what crime has been committed? You’re supposed to be a lawyer!
Me: I never said that. (Walks out of room calmly - no voice raised at any point)
DH: (Follows me out) You’re having a go at me, I’m agreeing with you, what’s your problem?
Me: No problem.
DH: Look, sorry if I’ve upset you, you’re overreacting, I was agreeing with you, I don’t see what your problem is.
Me: I’m fine. I was just trying to have a conversation with you.
DH: Well what are you having a go at me for then? I was trying to have a conversation with you too. I was agreeing with you and then you get all aggressive with me.

•NB AT NO POINT DID I GET AGGRESSIVE

Is he intentionally messing with my head or what?

Well he is going to lose a lot financially if you walk. That will be an eye opener for him. My OH is obsessed with money, he will not collect his private pension yet. He is 67 for goodness sake, he will never get to spend his huge pension pot. He moans about every bill it is a downer sometimes.

My friends husband walked out, he has been paying her 3k a month for a decade now. The children are grown but he had properties and other investments which he did not want to sell so the courts estimated what he should pay. He also has a public sector pension coming up she will get half of that.

You need to keep very quiet, find out exactly how much he has coming in, photocopy everything. Get all your ducks in a row, get legal advice, then decide.

I've never told anyone this before, only DH and I know. We had only been together for a few months before I became pregnant. By the time I found out I was pregnant, I wanted to end the relationship, in fact I had ended it but then (rather stupidly) told him I was pregnant and I was going to terminate the pregnancy. He was 38 at the time and he completely broke down and told me he'd always wanted kids and he felt this was his last chance and I couldn't deny him that, so begged and begged me in tears to go ahead with the pregnancy saying he would take the child and I wouldn't have to have anything to do with it, I could leave him but please don't deny him his one chance to be a father. Of course, I couldn't agree to that, no fucking way, but he tripped my guilt chord big time and so I made the decision to stay with him and raise the child together. We had a beautiful, beautiful son and whilst I accepted DH wasn't the love of my life, we made it work, we were reasonably happy, we made good parents and we absolutely adored our son. We went on to have our DD 3.5 years later. I love our kids so much, they are both WONDERFUL. I wouldn't change any of that for the world. I made the decision to bring children into the world and from that point on they became my absolute priority, my needs took last place. That was fine, we were reasonably happy, kids were great, but my work was the only thing that was mine, just mine - it was my sanctuary if you like, my place where I wasn't putting everyone else first and myself last, my space, my freedom, the place I could just be ME and that was ok. So I think that's why it hit me so hard when I lost my job - it wasn't just my job I lost, it was my self-validation, some narcissistic dude in a bow tie who didn't know me from Adam came along and decided to tell me after 2 weeks that ME wasn't welcome, ME wasn't good enough, I didn't deserve my sanctuary and he whipped it all away just like that, with absolutely no justification.

Wow, it feels really weird (and perhaps liberating) to fess up about that - it's a deep, dark secret I've been carrying for years. Didn't even tell the counsellor (because I thought it would be too hurtful to DH to revisit).

Quietly and secretly get your financial ducks in a row and move on.

Make sure he doesn’t find out about this thread and your plans.

I’m actually wondering as well if he himself has an OW - people who are hate filled controlling knobs tend to have a very “me first/selfish” attitude to everything in their life and that would be in keeping?

If he does anything similar, post his weird behaviour on here so you’re not alone.

@bluetowelly

I do feel very much alone. MN is giving me sustenance and strength. I'm so very, very grateful to you all for listening to me and taking the time to reply and offer advice.

Others can advise better on practical stuff.

I would say to mentally brace yourself for hardcore BEGGING when you do make your move away.

I reckon he’ll do the whole weepy “you just don’t UNDERSTAND me” and claiming it’s a communication issue etc etc.

And if you give in to his manipulation, he’ll be back to usual business as usual the next week, when you’re vulnerable again.

He’ll claim he NEEDS you. But what he means is he needs you as a target to passive aggressively bully and spill whatever hate is in his head into. And then claim he is the “victim”

When I’ve dated men like this, I’ve personally generally tired of the whole weirdness within a short space of time

but what I’ve noticed is they really, really, lack ability to change?

Like pp’s have said, they NEED a woman to belittle/hate/manipulate.

Even when I’ve been younger and just met them and been their “fresh start” (if you like to look at it that way) they can’t help the verbal manipulation on me. Even a few dates in?

It’s nothing to do with past history/ me not loving them enough/self esteem/IQ

I dated a guy briefly who was like this. Big salary, tall, handsome, no children. Wanted to settle down and have a relationship with me.

Should have been off the dating market in zero time.

Never off online dating and I myself certainly didn’t want him - no woman could stand him long enough.

His take on it was he had a “strong personality that liked discussion” (implying that women were just silly over sensitive wimps who couldn’t have a conversation)

My take on it was that he was a verbal bully - he would constantly twist whatever I said and it was really fucking tiring. It wasn’t even “straight direct argument”, just lies and “you said X” (when I didn’t).

Just because he “wanted” to meet someone to “give him a chance” didn’t mean he was entitled to have someone, given his behaviour.

I don’t think it’s gaslighting as such, that would be a little insulting to the victims of it.
He is, however, a major prick

Just wanted to say that I am so sorry you are in this situation and that it is totally understandable that you are - you made relationship decisions based on how things were at the time, and also had a massive stroke of bad luck in your career.

I would have taken the same decisions as you and I only hope I would have been as clearsighted and strong as you are about your current situation.

Kudos to you for raising two brilliant kids and for gearing up to take the next step in your life.

Someone mentioned recording conversations & my goodness, I really wished I could have done that because at times I couldn’t fathom how DH could behave as he was! He used to deny stuff too & I would have been able to prove that he definitely said x, y or z

Bluetowelly, very good post and you seem to have a good understanding of these types.The part about lack of change is very correct as they have so little insight.

I think the underlying emotion they have is envy, of everyone and everything which is turned into anger and then as you say they need someone to dump their hate onto.I could sense ex was relieved/relaxed when he had vented as it seemed to be a release for him.

I am not sure why some men are like this, in ex's case he had an abusive childhood so hasn't learnt how to express emotions in a healthy way.Once they achieve power, such as being the sole earner, they abuse their position.

I would take bets on the fact this guy is nowhere near your intelligence level, he consequently loves a good barney to bring you down a bit!! It will eventually drive you nuts OP

About conversation recording: I was advised by a counseller to do this and it went very badly. When I played it back then him he went crazy violent.

My ex used to say, when trying to convince me that I or had had/hadn't said something, "Well if only we'd recorded it and then I could prove it to you!" That really messed with my head and made me doubt myself, but I know it was him who was making stuff up because I don't have conversations like that with anyone else! (Whereas he does, with the DC.)

The thing is if I had recorded it, knowing him he would still have said "no I didn't say that" even if the evidence was right there. Or argued that he may have said it, but obviously meant something else, or that I misunderstood it. It wouldn't have helped.

I do wish sometimes I could record stuff. The other day I was at neighbours, her raspberries, strawberries were doing so well, we said well maybe that long cold snap had accelerated mother nature to put out as much as she could. When hubby heard this he went nuts, said her garden was crap compared to ours because he had used, chicken shit, bone meal etc. etc. when I tried to tell him it was just an observation and that he had been rude saying her garden was shit, he totally denied it. All in the space of two minutes. No wonder we get confused.

I do think that inferiority comes into play. We were at a supper party, thank god I was at other end of table. We were discussing books, OH has a very low opinion of books. Yet was jealous of our conversation. Go figure.

He just saw me typing and said sarcastically "What are you blogging now?" thought he was watching doctors.

oh yes I think this is down to envy and inferiority. I was seeing a chap recently who liked to think of himself as intelligent and thats why he liked me, because all other women were 'dim' and 'couldn't handle discussion'. Turned out he was shite in a debate and definitely couldnt handle someone talking back to him. I noticed some lowlevel attempts to belittle me, as payback I think. I got the impression he was simply jealous of my achievements as he used to pontificate on what was wrong with them when he hadnt ever achieved anything close

Oh yes, the X that I had prided himself on his intelligence! He used to keep me talking - 'discussing things' until well past the point when I needed to be in bed asleep (he would phone me in the evening, when I'd got my kids to bed and keep me talking until it got light. I used to fall asleep on the phone sometimes). All because he needed to reassure himself that he was more intelligent than me.

He wasn't. He could just talk and talk and talk until I'd agree to anything so I could get some sleep!

Omg zaphod same, think we dated the same guy

I bought some plants for the garden a month ago, chose them myself. They did not seem to be doing well, some of them disappeared overnight. So I started a slug hunt with dogs at night torch lit. Found last night OH had watered and fed with miracle gro all his plants, mine were left dry and unwatered. I watered and fed them this morning, when I asked him about this dry zone where my plants were received abuse. I was imagining it. Said "Oh stop gaslighting me". What the f... is gaslighting" he said, suggested he googled, well its not like he is ever going to read a book. I was baffled until today as to why his plants flourished and mine died....

He is so pissed off and has insisted I apologise, as if...

welsh good work for not fully rising to his bait but he still got his little kick out of it.

Until you've actually divorced him, the most effective way of getting back at him is to ignore the baiting. Totally ignore.

Water the plants, know that he's a cunt, say nothing, continue preparing to end the relationship.

He will try to find a way to make you mention it so he can get his rocks off. You can have a little fun deliberately ignoring and watching the little turd get wound up at his cunning plan failing.

☝️ Exactly what rabbit says. It’s like the Matrix once you see the shit for what it is.

Gosh my ex was exactly like this would start an argument, then start arguing the complete opposite and say I was ag Gregory arguing about nothing.. He was unhappy with many things in his life so this was his way of getting it his resentment and feeling in control. He actually admitted a few times he was doing it on purpose and that it amused him. Money had been a bit tighter since I got rid but I have so much more peace of mind and energy.

I would be so tempted to water his plants with weedkiller at this point.