Gaslighting - is it intentional?

[AlwaysIroning]

Just discovered (via MN) the term gaslighting, my DH has been messing with my head for years, I had just put it down to his age + low IQ, but now starting to wonder if it's all a bit more sinister and manipulative. This is an example of what happened tonight (one of two incidents actually). Background: I was in a park carpark today, a young lady came into the carpark to find her car damaged by fire and what looked to be the charred remains of a vehicle next to her car.

Me: So that car that was damaged by fire in the car park today, I saw on Twitter that there was a massive car fire and the fire brigade came to put it out. I would have expected that the fire brigade would have taken the registration number of the lady’s car, passed it on to police so that they could inform her of what happened so she could inform her insurance company.
DH: Not necessarily, the reg plate was probably burned out.
Me: No it wasn’t, I saw it.
DH: But you said it was completely burned out.
Me: No, that was the other car, the car I’m talking about was next to it and damaged by the fire.
DH: But you were talking about the burned out car.
Me: No I wasn’t, I was talking about the damaged car.
DH: But you didn’t make that clear.
Me: I told you that there was nothing left of the burned out car, it’s the car that was damaged that I’m concerned about.
DH: You were talking about the burned out car.
Me: (increasingly frustrated but not raising my voice) No I wasn’t, my concern was with the woman who returned to her car to find it damaged by fire, if that happened to me I would expect that the fire brigade would have passed on details to the police so that they could contact me with all the information I need to inform my insurance company.
DH: Was there a crime committed?
Me: Well I don’t know what happened.
DH: But you said there was a crime committed.
Me: No I didn’t.
DH: You said the police should be involved therefore a crime was committed.
Me: No I didn’t, I said that the fire brigade could have informed the police so that the owner of the damaged vehicle was made aware and she could call her insurers with full details. That is what I would expect if I was the owner of the vehicle.
DH: If it was a shed that set on fire and damaged the vehicle, would you seek to sue the owner of the shed?
Me: Well, I would expect someone to inform me about the damage to my vehicle caused by a fire that wasn’t anything to do with me and if the fire brigade attended then I would expect them to inform the relevant authorities.
DH: You’re saying a crime has been committed, but what crime has been committed? You’re supposed to be a lawyer!
Me: I never said that. (Walks out of room calmly - no voice raised at any point)
DH: (Follows me out) You’re having a go at me, I’m agreeing with you, what’s your problem?
Me: No problem.
DH: Look, sorry if I’ve upset you, you’re overreacting, I was agreeing with you, I don’t see what your problem is.
Me: I’m fine. I was just trying to have a conversation with you.
DH: Well what are you having a go at me for then? I was trying to have a conversation with you too. I was agreeing with you and then you get all aggressive with me.

•NB AT NO POINT DID I GET AGGRESSIVE

Is he intentionally messing with my head or what?

[Dontsayyouloveme]

My exh was also like this. Nitpicked everything I said, trying to make out I was stupid, but god if I did the same to him, he would storm out of the room. Like another poster said, he too was the master at gaslighting and manipulation! They do it to make themselves feel superior then turn it round to you, when you answer back. It is so incredibly draining having to have your wits about you ALL the time. Won’t put up with that again off anyone.

[Babdoc]

I wonder if he’s trying to grind you down to the point where you get fed up and leave him? That way it becomes your “fault” that the relationship failed, and he can play the poor deserted victim.
Alternatively, as PPs have suggested, he’s intimidated by your intellect and profession, and is simply arguing with everything you say on any subject, to try and defend his ego and maintain some kind of power balance.
Either way, this is not a happy or healthy relationship, and I’d suggest couples counselling if you want to save it. Or just walk - prob the quickest and simplest option!

[HollyGibney]

My ex H and ex FIL do this. I just used to call it being a contrary fucker. But then I would start thinking about why they want to be contrary and I decided that it was because they don't like or respect women in general very much, especially their wives, and want to try to create conflict with them. They enjoy it for some reason, makes them feel superior I suppose. I got to the point where I just couldn't be bothered to even have any kind of discussion with either of them, too hard work.

[HollyGibney]

Oh and ex H used to say "I just like a discussion that's all, I like to present alternative view points"

FUCK OFF!

[MaryPeary]

for you, @AlwaysIroning. Doesn't sound sophisticated enough to go be gaslighting, just a twat who wants a row.

What do you get out of this relationship? Are either of you happy in it?

[GreenItWas]

I too had an ex like this. I stuck it on and off for four years and binned the twat. He just pushed me too far one day just after my DMum had died and I didn't have the frigging bandwidth to deal with his juvenile antics any longer. Never regretted it. He remains a total knob 'ead.

What do you want to do about this delightful character OP?

[HollyGibney]

I’m never hit anyone in my life. Half way through that conversation I would have taken his head clean off his shoulders

That made me .

[Eatmycheese]

Insufferable cockwomble

I think you should just tell him to do one so you don’t have to spend your life exactly wondering whereabouts in the total twat spectrum he falls.

[hellsbellsmelons]

Wow - how long have you been putting up with this crap for?
No way would not have smacked him during that conversation (not literally)
I would certainly have walked away before half way through that.
Is he loving?
What does he do for you?
Make you feel loved?
Cherished?
Wanted?
Appreciated?

Do you have DC?

[RabbitsAreTasty]

Gosh he loves a fight doesn't he? Does he get off most from winding you up or from playing the victim afterwards?

[CheeseyToast]

Please tell us you're leaving him today. He sounds like the most annoying person on the planet. Our collective nerves are shot to pieces just from reading one excerpt. In fact, I couldn't even read to the end 😔

[SM2132]

He sounds really fucking annoying! I was getting irritated reading that. My dh is a bit like this, he has ocd though, and he gets the wrong end of the stick/focuses on a pointless detail of the story I am saying and harps on about it for ages asking questions, he can't help it but it is so annoying and really stresses me out!

[VogueVVague]

Is he aspergers?

[MsJinglyJones]

Ah this takes me back!

My ex could have a normal conversation about other things, but if any of it related to him or anything he'd said or done, it was like this. It was gaslighting in that whatever I or he said, a bit later in the conversation he'd be twisting it and lying about what had just been said. I would get more and more outraged and stressed and he'd just keep doing it more and more. He would refuse to agree that he had lied or twisted anything.

Eventually I realised it was a power tactic and a way of not having to ever lose an argument or talk about anything he didn't want to. Every argument would become an argument about what he'd just said in the argument instead. Ultimately I'd get angry, he'd play the victim, and he was off the hook, with me left wound up and confused.

Over time it made me very anxious and exhausted.

To answer your question, in my ex's case I think he believed his own lies. He was so desperate to not be in the wrong, and to "win" an argument, that he'd just convince himself he was right, eve if he was saying black was white. I think he was genuinely sorry for himself that I was such a cow to him by getting irate and questioning his statements. I don't think he planned it, he just panicked and went on the offensive-as-defensive, and didn't have the insight or empathy to see that it made me hate him.

So glad I left.

[CheggarsPlaysPlop]

Mine does exactly this sort of thing. In the process of leaving!

[Ohyesiam]

He’s a bully, and it sounds exhausting.
Does he have redeeming features?actually I don’t think anything could redeem the type of conversation you recount,

[Walkacrossthesand]

Sobering reading for me - ive got a male friend (not a DP although I'm single) who is increasingly showing this tendency - won't ever be 'wrong' or have misremembered something, it's always that I didn't understand what he meant etc. It's really taking the gloss off what was a nice friendship, so I'm slowly but surely distancing myself...
Reading your OP, it was the story of a man who doesn't want to have a pleasant conversation, just wants to trip you up/prove you wrong/wind you up. Well done for recognising it & leaving the room!

[Hedjiga]

Yuck. I agree with possible personality disorder etc. But why bother diagnosing him when you could just get rid of him?

I’ve known people like this in the workplace who try to “win” every conversation, no matter how banal or trivial.

(so the conversation ends and I basically feel like I’ve been manipulated into “admitting” I’m a saddo and they’re right and have excellent judgement on everything)

It’s weird because I wouldn’t say they’re hugely intelligent or articulate or successful, just good at hectoring people/being sneaky.

So I’m trying to communicate information normally and they’re standing there trying to goad me into saying Y or Z. Or play one upmanship.

Its really irritating, but I think objectively it’s due to low self esteem - none of the people I know who do it are happy with the way they’ve turned out, so they get very obsessed with controlling the way conversations go so they can “prove” something?

[Blondebakingmumma]

Wow OP! I wanted to go bang my head against a brick wall after reading that! How annoying.

I honestly believe that either his comprehension isn’t fantastic or he is annoyingly argumentative. I just couldn’t live with him, you have been very tolerant to be with him stil!

Update??

[NeeChee]

My partner tells me he's told me things, but I swear he hasn't. So for example, we've got DC on an extra night, but I've already made my own plans for food/activities/working early or late.
Sometimes I wonder if he's confused telling EXW with telling me. Or he's just trying to make me look more shit than I already am.

[Yokatsu]

That's not gaslighting

I don't think it's necessarily deliberate either. As ever there's what you've said and what someone else hears. They are not always quite the same thing

Doesn't mean it's not annoying you or that you shouldn't split up.

[MsJinglyJones]

It's gaslighting to insist something is true when it's not, to the point where the other person starts to feel like they're going mad.

Intentional gaslighting, like in the film it was named after, is more sinister. But someone constantly misrepresenting what you've said in a conversation can have the same effect on you, even if they're not intentionally trying to confuse you.

I don't think my ex understood what he was doing as such, but he kept doing it because he liked the results - me getting upset and angry, him playing the victim and me being left confused, doubting myself and weakened. It was his default setting if he ever felt criticised in any way or like he might be asked to do something or take responsibility.

[TheBogWitchIsBack]

It's definitely gaslighting. It's trying to twist your version of what happened into something else that didn't happen.
It doesn't matter why they do it, wether it's to start an argument or to make you doubt reality the result is the same. They gain control of the conversation and you end up frustrated, angry and confused and they sit back and admire their handiwork and tell you that your crazy and emotional.

[Yokatsu]

Yes it is.

But tbh I understood the initial conversation the same way as the OP'S Oh (and I'm considered an intelligent individual). I was wondering why she was not making any sense and insisting she was and who was meant to be the one doing the Gaslighting. I had to get to the end and reread the who thing before I got what the OP was on about.

You don't have the opportunity to reread a verbal conversation. Most of the second half of the conversation seems to be the OH trying clumsily to involve himself the the conversation but by that time both parties were way too wound up for that to happen with any degree of sucess. Then I suspect because he feels stupid he tries to win it before realising just how badly wrong the conversation haseems gone so apologies. Although at apology will feel entirely contrived to the OP although actually the reason it feels false is because i doubt he has a clue what hes actually apologising for)

It all smacks to me of poor communication with much of the time the one assuming the other is thinking along the same lines as them and so knows what you're on about without actually providing all the information. Exhausting yes Abusive no.

Does mean that if I wasn't fed up of it I wouldn't leave.

[HollyGibney]

OP says this happens every day. I don't believe that there can be such a huge, constant level of misunderstanding unless one of the parties is doing it on purpose. I think it's hugely passive aggressive more than anything. Just a way to have a go and create conflict with someone you resent, or don't like very much. I've seen this so often with couples who have been together a long time. It's a way of expressing their general day to day resentments and unhappiness. It's perfect really, constantly "misunderstanding" and pretending someone said they meant something they didn't, getting them all wound up and then he can throw his hands up and play the victim at OP's total "overreaction" to him Just Not Getting It.