Wife taking it out on me at every DD's tantrum - suggestions?

[ExhaustedFather]

Dear mummies and daddies of mumsnet, I could use some advice on a situation at home that's getting a bit out of hand. Of course I mean some constructive advice: just saying "poor you", or "it's all your fault" or "you need to understand her" without elaborating doesn't help much.

When our 3-year old girl throws up tantrums, mummy is usually the only one who can calm her; we range from situations where she doesn't explicitly ask for mummy, but only mummy can calm her (eg refusing to go to bed because she wants whatever dessert she saw on TV), to cases where she goes totally ballistic because she has decided she wants to be near mummy and finds it unacceptable that mummy might be having a shower without her.

I have tried all I could think of: distracting our daughter with songs books toys, offering some milk or a babyccino, hugging her to comfort her, talking about inviting her best friend or her cousins over, etc. The only thing that works is pulling out a mobile and showing something on youtube, but I don't do that anymore as she seems addicted to it, and her reaction when I try to switch it off is even worse (withdrawal syndrome, almost).

The typical cycle is: kid throwing up a tantrum with parents, followed by wifey taking it out with hubby (me) and using me as kind of emotional punching bag.

Wifey's typical comments are along the lines of: what do I even need a husband for, I'm practically a single mum, why do I even have you in the house, all you do is bring a salary home, etc.

I always point out that it would be in my interest to be able to calm our daughter, because if I did I wouldn't get the double earache of daughter crying in my ears + wifey taking it out on me, and my life would be oh so much better. When I try to say this, and ask her: ok, what do you want me to do? Calm her by myself? I'd love to, but how? Reason with her? If you have found a way to reason with a toddler, you're in for a Nobel prize! Yes, it's unfair, yes, it sucks, no, I probably can't imagine what it must really mean for you... but, realistically, what can I do?

I work longer hours than my wife, typically arrive home 2 hours after her, so it's inevitable that our daughter spends more time with her than with me. Maybe if I were a stay at home dad things would be different, but neither that nor getting a 9-5 job closer to home are realistic options for now.

Thoughts? Thanks!

ltb

3 year olds do understand, well more than 2 year olds anyway. If she goes to nursery I bet she doesn't do it there.

you seem get very stressed out by the tantrums and try to calm her anyway you can, all children have tantrums and many parents just ignore them, then console the child when the child wants it. Certainly don't let her in to the bathroom while your wife showers.

I think your DD is old enough to start learning that screaming doesn't get you want you want, if you don't do it now she will continue this behaviour right up into her teens.

Not every tantrum is something you can fix. You’d be best off working on strategies to get through the tantrum, not trying to stop the tantrum. If you’re desperately trying to stop the screaming then it’ll just make you all more stressed, and if you give in and say “okay then go in and see Mummy in the shower” that isn’t fair.

Help your daughter learn to work through her feelings. Take her out of your wife’s hearing range when she’s having a shower though!

I’ve been in her position. I would get in the bath (my only time to myself), one or other of the toddlers would meltdown and want to come in with me. ExH would ineffectually wheedle and cojole and flap for five minute before banging on the door himself and saying ‘you need to let her in, I can’t calm her’.

What I wanted him to do was pick her up, take her downstairs and either distract her, ignore her, feed her, play with her, take her outside, take her for a walk, ANYTHING proactive.

This all sounds very familiar. I do sympathise but you really need to address how you are dealing with tantrums.

What I wanted him to do was pick her up, take her downstairs and either distract her, ignore her, feed her, play with her, take her outside, take her for a walk, ANYTHING proactive

I could have written this!

Let your wife showed in peace! Your dd is just making noise that is all its just very loud noise remove her from the vicinity of your wife's well needed unwind time.
Ignore the tantrum and find dd toys or books make it look like you are having a great time and want dd to join in. Basically engage with your dd and not the tantrum.
Your wife had to figure this out for herself without asking you did she not? Dd calms for her because your wife had to just find a way to calm your dd.
Start creating one on one time every evening with dd then that it your time with dd and motion for your wife to quietly escape to shower or any other thing etc....take dd outside go for an evening walk even if its only to end of street at a 3yr olds pace.

Stop waiting for your wife or dd to decide how to stop the tantrum.

Shower

Learning to deal with her emotions is an important part of being 3. If she tantrums, the goal isn't to calm her down ASAP. She needs to learn to identify emotions like anger and how to deal with it. She'll be at school and there will be times when other kids will annoy her and mum won't be there to calm her down.
When she's tantrumming and there's a break in the crying, offer her hugs or cuddles to help calm down. The initial stage of a tantrum is often anger so being touched or spoken too is going to annoy her more. (If she's in a place where it's not safe to tantrum like the middle of the road, you obviously need to move her while she's kicking and screaming)

You definitely need more practice without your wife being. If she won't go out, you go out with dd. You'll feel embarrassed if she kicks off in public but most kids do at some point and the ones who are staring just have rose-tinted glasses that has made them conveniently forget that their kids did the same.

First and only rule of tantrums, once they have started you let them run their course.

If anything could have been done to stop it (giving her a snack, quiet time in front of the tv, saying yes to what she asked) implement that the next time but do not deal or compromise at the time.

Tantrums however awful for parents are vital in understand social boundaries and the concept of no

See your dd sees your wavering here as you do actually think it might be better to 'give in'. Sure if mum is happy to have her in, fine, but if the tantrum has happened because you've said no, then she is learning your word is not good and tantrumming is what solved her problem.

It's really important to say it's not about punishing her by letting her cry - it is ok to cry, for her, for you, for me, she can't verbalize it yet so it's her only way, she's upset and frustrated but that's ok too. She will learn to deal with these hard feelings with your support. Letting her cry us letting her let the feelings out and then move on. So I think you need to change your perspective on it. Are you very uncomfortable with her upset? (Dare the armchair psychologist in me ask if you're able to express your own difficult feelings? [Grin] ) Kids are actually very mindful if we let them be and not make it about us.

One of the things that makes my husband fab, is that I can (and have) left him with a screaming baby, tantrumming toddler, stropping pre-teen knowing that he would deal with them safely and appropriately, without my input (though we would always talk about it later and think about how to deal better with the behaviour next time, partly so we were consistent in our expectations / reactions). Try to be like that.

Or does your DW not want to leave you in charge and / or want you to parent exactly as she does with no space to try out your own approach? I've seen that happen, and it does make it tricky for the DH to step up.

You need to reverse this in your head.

You give your DD exactly what she wants in the tantrum. You teach her she will get exactly what she wants be tantrumming, regardless of whether that is actually what's best for her or what you have said originally. She learns you can't be trusted and that she's in charge. That's a scary place to be as a 3 year old.

If you were a 3 year old Would you want to be with an adult you couldn't trust? So it becomes harder and harder to parent her. Because you aren't actually adequately parenting her in the first place.

At three and in charge is an even scarier place to be in than at 7. It's more important not less.

And your wife will resent you more and more. She knows this. She's dealt with the tantrums a hell of a lot more often than you have. Did she come to you and say you need to solve this you are the only one who can sort this? No she sorted it.

please, don't be like this, or mummy will take it out on me

And this is the ultimate abdication of responsibility. You basically told your DD she doesn't have to listen to you only your wife because she can discipline you so actually she's the only one in charge. You made it 100% harder for yourself and framed your wife as the boring discipline one in one fair swoop. And still seemingly have no idea. No wonder she was mad

My DD was like this.
As mom I would say mommy's doing xy,z but daddy is free and he can sort a,b,c.
Dad would say I know you want mommy but she is doing x,y,z so I'm here, let's sort this out.
Support each other and back each other up.
If she still tantrums ignore it. Tell her you love her and to come to you when she is ready so you can talk about it/sort it out.
Tantrums are normal. Just don't give in.

Oh and by sorting it herself she builds trust in her as a parent, making it a little bit easier next time.

A by easier it might be an hour and a half not two hours. Expecting you can sort a proper tantrum out in the time it takes to have a shower is a bit of a joke. I can promise you that your wife will have dealt with worse, your DD knows that your wife hasaid dealt with worse. By being not dealing you are making yourself look incapable in both of their eyes.

I think you need to do more 1-1 with your daughter and she will get used to you being in charge of her. My DH wasn't great at housework when kids were tiny but he did used to take both kids out to museum, library, park etc.
What are you doing when you come home? Do you engage with your daughter like play game, read books or do you sit looking at your phone? It sounds like attention seeking behaviour - you should be able to pre empt it by having calm routine and chatting with her etc. I don't think regular tantrums are the norm. Is she in full time nursery? If so she could be exhausted and home is her only outlet.

At weekends I possibly spend more time with DD than my wife : I take her to the playground and soft play while mummy goes to the gym, every time DD needs new clothes or shoes I always try to take her shopping by myself so wifey has more time for herself, etc. I do fully appreciate how important it is for my wife to have some alone time and I do try to make it happen. In fairness, it is also a selfish thing, because, as they say, happy wife = happy life! Her last birthday gift from me was a night out with her girlfriends while I stayed home with DD (their friends paid for her and I paid them back).

I don't have much of a problem when I'm alone with DD. I stayed alone with her, eg when mummy went to a hen do for a weekend, and two days when mummy went abroad for work. They went fine.

The problem is not when I'm alone with DD. The problem is when DD is with both of us. My wife even says that DD is on much worse behaviour when we are both around than when she's alone with her.

When I say I give up I don't mean I sit on my lazy bottom, I mean that I try, even though deep down I know the odds of succeeding are slim. Practical example : mega tantrum a few days ago while mummy was in the shower. I tried to explain to DD that mummy was in the shower and would be back soon. She didn't listen. I tried hugging her and comfort her asking what was wrong. I brought up her friends, her cousins (what games did you play, shall we visit your cousin tomorrow, etc) but nothing. Ignoring her in these situations means she'll just go running to mummy and knock on the bathroom door like her life depended on it, which typically results in my wife going ballistic (did you not even try to clam her down etc).

It's one thing to ignore DD when the tantrum is about, say, buying a new toy. But when it's about going to the shower room with mummy, she either knocks on the door like a desperate, or I have to try to physically restrain her while she kicks and screams because she wants to be with mummy. Not easy.

To make things worse, we initially both agreed that we shouldn't give in to tantrums. Now my wife is of the opinion that it's impossible to reason with a 3-year old, so if the meltdown goes on for too long, I should bring DD to her so DD can calm down (wife's words, not mine). She even told me off a couple of times because I didn't bring DD to her soon enough.

I feel between a rock and a hard place!

Also you need to agree on a strategy to calm her down e.g. on bottom step. It sounds like lots of chasing about after her.

I agree with all the above. And I especially agree with the fact that you need to start having 'daddy and DD time'.

Don't wait for the tantrums. Take her out for a walk. Say something like 'I'm off for a walk, come on DD'. Don't ask her if she wants to go because that's her cue for mummy. Just take her with you. A little walk up the street. If you have a park nearby take her there. Make it fun to be with daddy. But not at a time when there are tantrums. You can't replace mummy as her soother at the moment. She needs to recognise that daddy time is fun time too - not just a way of not seeing mummy.

A three year loves the park, kicking up leaves (and picking up every grubby thing they can find), jumping in puddles (when DS was that age he used to love it when I joined in the puddle jumping with him), take her to soft play areas, even a trip to the shops (let her choose some nice flowers for mummy or a treat for all of you to have later or even just help to buy the apples or milk or whatever - kids of that age love to be involved).

Do you help with her bath time at the moment (as someone mentioned). DH has always done DS's bath time (apart from being late home or away on business). What about meal times? Do you make her meals at all? Can you sit with her whilst she eats and mum then wander off whilst you're chatting (ask DW not to say a word, just go into the other room - if DD knows she's gone the tantrums will start).

And that's key too. Don't always say 'mummy's off for a shower' or whatever. Mummy's not leaving the house so there's no need to explain where she is all the time (obviously sometimes it's appropriate but no one has to explain where they are in the house every time they 'disappear' - if that's what's happening).

Basically you have to make it fun for your DD to be with you but you don't have to try too hard. Our DS likes helping DH when he has to take stuff to the recycling centre or washing out plant pots. They have 'chats' about all sorts of things whilst they work. When DS was little it would take ages to wash a pot - but that wasn't the point. It was 'daddy and me' time.

Do you read her stories or play with the toys other than at tantrum times? If not start doing it. You read her bed time story. It's you or no story. If she starts insisting on mummy just tell her no and walk away. Give her a minute or two then check if she is now ready for the story. Read by you. That's it - you're the adult you make the rules. Don't play the game more than a couple of times. If she still insists mummy then it's no story that night. A couple of nights later and I guarantee you will be reading the stories. Make it cuddle time, snuggle up.

I used to go away for a weekend every so often when my DS was under two years old. He and DH had 'boys weekends' - went to the zoo or did the gardening, went swimming and stuffed their faces with pizza for tea (who cares, I was having a lovely time at the theatre or wandering about London!) But it all came from us (DH and I) agreeing a strategy - daddy does it or it doesn't happen, mummy's not at DS's beck and call every day.

Good luck. I really think the key to this is you stepping in when the tantrums aren't happening - you don't want to stop the tantrums, you want to stop them happening in the first place. But do remember, tantrums are communication. You'll never stop them all but your DD has to learn that tantrums do not get her anywhere.

There was a brilliant book that I got when DS was about three. It's called 'How to talk so kids listen' or something like that. It's about understanding what your children are trying to tell you and how to empathise with them. It's by Adele Faber I think. There's also a 'little kids' version by Joanne(Joanna?) Faber for 2 plus years old which I didn't get. I lent the book I did have to my friend as she was having problems finding out why her DS seemed withdrawn (bullying at reception but didn't know how to tell her). She liked it so much she brought her own copy. Worth checking out.

OK sounds like mummy gets lots of free time and DD wants her attention. She is the one who needs to engage with DD. Sorry to assume you were less involved.

Did you read my earlier post, op? I suggested a couple of strategies that helped for us.

Ok so latest post changes things somewhat.
Next time your wife is in the shower, pick up your DD and take her somewhere your wife can’t hear her. Your wife can’t give mixed messages either, it’s not fair.

You're looking for a procedural solution where there is none, because she's a human child not a machine. I don't really mean that to sound sarcastic; is easily done.

I do find that tantrums are sometimes preventable by making sure the kid knows what's going to happen and when. Sometimes that's not possible and sometimes they happen anyway and you just have to stay calm and take it as it comes I'm afraid.

DD spends half the week in a nursery and half the week with a nanny. To be fair the nanny does spoil her a little, and she seems on better behaviour on her nursery days, but we also need the flexibility of a nanny because of our work patterns and because, when she was younger, a week sick wouldn't have meant a week off work for us.

Things did get a little bit better when I was on garden leave and spent a lot more time with DD than my wife. It doesn't take Freud to understand that, but the options of me not working or working part time now are not feasible.

It seems most people here are of the opinion we shouldn't cave and should not allow DD in the shower room. I'd tend to agree, but wifey is now of the opposite opinion - she wants me to bring DD to her when the tantrum becomes "too bad". Of course the definition of "too bad" is at her sole discretion, and I constantly get crucified for getting it wrong.

You don't yet have the skills to deal with your dd's tantrem and that irritates your wife.

If you imagine this was about changing a nappy, you might view it differentely.
I doubt you would accept that your dw had to always change nappies, even if it meant disrupting her shower.You would learn.

Also suggest you reframe the situation in your mind so that your thinking changes, rather than "I can't deal with this and dw then gets angry with me" which is a bit victim'ish see it as
"I don't have the skills and need to develop them"

Lots of info on how to handle tantrems so look it it from that point of view and you will be problem solving.
It is distressing to hear your child so upset/angry but it is developmental and won't last forever.Only yesterday did I see a mum struggling with a toddler having a tantrum about getting into his car seat...it brings back memories and I always have empathy for the parent as its horrendously stressful.

She's three. She can't have everything she wants when she wants it, including the parent who is showering when the other is looking after her. And the fact that you feel ineffectual and then blame your wife in front of your daughter is exacerbating it.

Practical advice: look for times when these tantrums typically happen. They may we'll be linked to DD being tired/hungry etc... and need a slight change of routine to help avert them.
Also you say you and your wife both work, so does your DD tantrum like this in her other childcare? (If she does, they can give you some tips to handle it. If she doesn't then it shows even more that the way you are giving in to her is not good for her and exacerbating th tantrums.)

Finally, I think you should find a local parenting course and attend it. Parenting is difficult and there's nothing wrong with needing to learn how to do it.