FIL: Would this trouble you?

[ivegotnostrings]

DH has never really seen eye to eye with his Dad.

FIL describes himself as bohemian, had a high flying career but lived quite a mixed lifestyle.

DH says his parents were part of a big swinging community when they were growing up. Was quite communal with partner-swapping going on etc, quite open about it all. DH says the focus of their childhood was basically communing with these other families (kids away playing upstairs, DH playing downstairs).

Anyway, SIL had a few recently and sort of said to me that when she was growing up FIL was slightly strange with her - a lot of 'jokey' bottom touching when she was a little girl, comments about her breasts when she was a teenager, nothing she'd describe as abuse as such, but definitely a feeling of very poor boundaries and being a bit creeped out.

Anyway, I'm fairly live and let live, but this last bit from SIL set alarm bells ringing, especially as we have primary aged DDs.

Finally, DH has been a bit cagey and touchy lately and not wanted to see FIL at all. I finally pinned DH down about it and asked him what was up. Apparently FIL has taken up writing and sent DH his first novella.

It's a story about incest, it includes a sex scene. Between family members. But it's written not in a shock-horror way. It's just incidental to the story, as if that's a very normal thing? Normal for two very close members of the same family to have sex. He's just kind of written it into the plot.

DH doesn't want to talk about any of this at all, esp not to FIL.

But my mother instincts are screaming here.

Sexually promiscuous, ok, that's kind of his business I guess....Sexually intimidating to his young daughter, not ok - but SIL does not want to raise this with him or for us to do so either so I kind of have to pretend I don't know that.

Thinks incest is....normal? So far from ok that I'm wondering if I've stepped into a parallel universe. Do Father's do this? Write stories about incest and send them to their children.

DH doesn't want to make a fuss but I am getting great big clanging alarm bells about this man being around my DC. I don't let them be alone with him anyway, but I'm wondering if he should be allowed to have any influence over them at all?

Well I certainly wouldn’t want my children alone with him either!!

Nope nope nope. Wouldn't have my kids within 100miles of that sort of person.

I think, technically, he hasn’t done anything. So there is nothing you can pin on him or do. Any decisions you make are based on an assumption and that could cause major family issues if brought up (without hard evidence). However I agree definitely do not leave your DDs alone with him. Have a safety chat with them to make sure and I would personally distance myself from him (minimum birthday/xmas visits). Also I would tell your DH so he doesn’t ever leave the children alone with him if you pop out of the room. Sorry you’re going through this op

I would ensure that children are not left with him. I'd be tempted to tell him that since reading his book, he has made you all feel uncomfortable.

Thank you. I think FIL is quite hurt by our withdrawal, and so it would seem fair to explain.

And yet...how on earth do I do that?

Without bringing SIL into it (which may destroy your entire family) and his book (which he could claim you are over reacting and it’s a story) I don’t see how you can. The truth makes you out to be bad guys if he spins it.

Don't explain, trust your instincts, protect your kids.

I’m trying to work out how bad what he did to SIL was.

She said he would put his hand under her bottom whenever she sat down next to him. She was quite young I think. She said it was a joke thing, she would leap up because he’d slide it under her when she went to sit down. She’s in her 30s so maybe that kind of thing wasn’t seen as serious back then?

She did say when she was a teen he’d come home drunk and comment on her body, the size of her breasts etc.

I think her lens of what is normal (and DHs) might be being skewed by their slightly unusual childhood.

she would leap up because he’d slide it under her when she went to sit down
I am reminded of that clip of Jimmy Saville and 2 teenage girls on TOTP, it's grooming isnt it, inappropriate behaviour to wear down boundaries

I would have massive warning sirens blaring at me with all this

Sil is in denial (not uncommon). As a csa survivor myself I wouldn't let any child of mine anywhere near him!

Not leaving them alone with him isn't enough. He can still groom, normalise "jokey" touching and inappropriate comments - this is breaking down boundaries.

I'd be VERY surprised if you didn't discover later (possibly after fil death) that more happened.

Sod politeness your kids are more important

I know your SIL said that isn't abuse but I would consider it abuse. For SIL's best interests I wouldnt bring that up with him but I would be honest about the book making everyone uncomfortable.

Its shitty that you may "cause" some family drama him but it would be shittier if he touched your girls. I think your instincts are very important here.

DH doesn't want to make a fuss = doesnt want to open a big can of worms

why the fuck would he send him the novella with incest scenes in it??
trying to normalise incest and gain access to his grandchildren?

I would be keeping detailed notes on everything he does and looking out for him trying to gain private access to children in general

Sliding your hand under a child's bottom isn't a joke :(

Writing about incest is bad enough but to send it to your children ??

I wouldn't have anything to do with that man and I'd get dh to have some counselling.

I must say this is making me feel really uncomfortable now - there have been times in the past where I've seen him with the DDs. Like, sitting in a restaurant with them, not hiding off with them and I've not like how low his hand has been...

I've also really felt uncomfortable with him around at the beach or similar while they're undressing.

I thought it was just me being paranoid, but it's not a feeling I've ever had with other male members of the family so I know it's triggered by him, rather than that I'm just generally suspicious...

YOU won't be causing anything. his own behaviours, both historically and current are the problem, nothing you've done or could do.

Please remember that.

I wouldn’t want him around them; not being left alone only protects them to a certain extent/a certain age. The ongoing contact and relationship opens the door for grooming to occur.
I think your DH is feeling the same alarm bells but struggling with it

Not allowing him to be alone with them is not enough,from a safety for them point of view or peace of mind for you point of view. You need to make sure he stays away from them completely.

Look at it this way:

Your FIL is now pushing your boundaries. He’s pushed your SILs and now he’s pushing yours to see where you draw the line.
This is classic grooming behaviour - an action that is provocative but deniable (oh just a book!) but look at what it actually says - who the fuck writes a novel with incest in and sends it to their kids for review? SIL is TELLING you that he’s got form for groping young women. Listen to her too.

You’re being too nice. Listen to those instincts, and FILs ‘hurt feelings’ are His own problem.

Again this is a classic grooming technique - provocative action—> response —> recipient allows it —> goes further.

Provocative action—> response —> recipient pushes back—> groomer turns the emotional blame back on the recipient

Think very carefully about this dynamic. It’s deeply unhealthy. Even if your FIL never lays a hand on your dds do you want them to have the slightly icky ‘skewed boundaries’ your DH has to witness?

After reading your update keep them the hell away from this dangerous man.
With DH and his reluctance to discuss, has he also been through child abuse? But is in denial like his DS and not see it that way.

Who gives a flying fuck if you upset them?? .. Your duty is to your dc not fil.
And your dh needs to grow a backbone.

I'd speak to FIL myself and tell him in no uncertain terms I think he's a sexual predator and that you're watching him. If he does anything you are not happy with you'll go to the Police and I'd only tell DH after the conversation.
What a creep.
Also warn your kids.

I had a Godfather like him, I told my stepdad he made me uncomfortable and he warned him off. He stopped visiting after that.

True denial is massively misunderstood and referred to flippantly. It can include revision of history and even complete memory suppression.

Your update concerns me too. We have instincts for a reason. You don't trust this man near your DC, that's good enough.

I'm wondering if at the very least dh has witnessed fil abusing sil or someone else but perhaps in denial or perhaps it happened when he was too young to understand what it was.

What was his "high flying career" ?

Listen to Hypermice. Often abusers do things in front of the care-givers to push push push at boundaries. Then the child sees the parent placate and keep quiet and suppress their feelings to be polite and all those things we DON'T want children to do.

So unless you can challenge loudly and publicly, you cannot have your children around him. At all, even with you there.

And talk to your children about consent and model good consent. For example, in our house, DD gets to stop any physical game whenever she chooses immediately (play-fighting, tickling, whatever), she is never asked to kiss/hug any relative or friend. She chooses. She gets privacy when she wants it. We discuss what is private or not. She knows what areas of her body are private. She knows who is allowed to even ask for access (doctor for e.g.) and why and when (if mummy is there and when she has something that needs to be treated). And she knows the actual names for body parts (not mini, foo-foo nonsense).