FIL: Would this trouble you?

[ivegotnostrings]

DH has never really seen eye to eye with his Dad.

FIL describes himself as bohemian, had a high flying career but lived quite a mixed lifestyle.

DH says his parents were part of a big swinging community when they were growing up. Was quite communal with partner-swapping going on etc, quite open about it all. DH says the focus of their childhood was basically communing with these other families (kids away playing upstairs, DH playing downstairs).

Anyway, SIL had a few recently and sort of said to me that when she was growing up FIL was slightly strange with her - a lot of 'jokey' bottom touching when she was a little girl, comments about her breasts when she was a teenager, nothing she'd describe as abuse as such, but definitely a feeling of very poor boundaries and being a bit creeped out.

Anyway, I'm fairly live and let live, but this last bit from SIL set alarm bells ringing, especially as we have primary aged DDs.

Finally, DH has been a bit cagey and touchy lately and not wanted to see FIL at all. I finally pinned DH down about it and asked him what was up. Apparently FIL has taken up writing and sent DH his first novella.

It's a story about incest, it includes a sex scene. Between family members. But it's written not in a shock-horror way. It's just incidental to the story, as if that's a very normal thing? Normal for two very close members of the same family to have sex. He's just kind of written it into the plot.

DH doesn't want to talk about any of this at all, esp not to FIL.

But my mother instincts are screaming here.

Sexually promiscuous, ok, that's kind of his business I guess....Sexually intimidating to his young daughter, not ok - but SIL does not want to raise this with him or for us to do so either so I kind of have to pretend I don't know that.

Thinks incest is....normal? So far from ok that I'm wondering if I've stepped into a parallel universe. Do Father's do this? Write stories about incest and send them to their children.

DH doesn't want to make a fuss but I am getting great big clanging alarm bells about this man being around my DC. I don't let them be alone with him anyway, but I'm wondering if he should be allowed to have any influence over them at all?

Please stand up for your children, and make sure that his involvement is limited and supervised.

Yea it's not just actions it's the permission implied to the DC which also breaks down boundaries.

Makes you look as if you're giving him permission to do/say inappropriate things

Yup. Like mrsterrypratchet we have a stop when asked policy, kids never told to kiss or hug anyone and they’re taught age appropriate stuff about boundaries etc.

If your SIL is telling you this now, it’s a warning. She may have experienced more and be unable to process it or discuss it. You’ve seen him act in public around your DDs in a way that makes you unhappy and he’s got you on the back foot because women are socialised to be nice and that puts their safety below predators feelings.

We NEVER have to be nice to save the feelings of people who a danger to us. That’s such an important lesson for young girls (and boys) to learn.

Someone on here a while back said something that really struck a chord with me “if you don’t face it, your kids will have to.”

Ok, thanks all.

I'm very fond of SIL, should I offer support or raise it again? I don't think she would have told me about this if she didn't trust me. Or should I leave it? Ask DH to speak to her?

It is SO hard.

Because obviously people have different view on monogamy. Fine. People write fiction. Fine. The SIL stuff (which I totally believe) not fine but easy to explain away or deny..

All of them together...not fine at all.

But I feel as though we live in a society where we are shamed for raising concerns like this, or we're making it up or hysterical or imagining it.

Although your DC are primary aged and you say sil says it happened in her teens I'm wondering if yours are heading for puberty, starting to develop. That maybe this was when he started with her. That may be what's triggered her now. Does she have DC?

That also doesn't sound like swinging/bohemian lifestyle to me it sounds like a set up designed to make children exposed to sexual behaviour which in itself is abusive. No swingers I know would do so with children around.

I think that's your feeling. No doubt some people might agree. Your FIL has inappropriate physical, emotional and sexual boundaries. You don't have to explain anything to him. Maybe it would do him good to wonder how his actions might have led to this situation. You just need to do whatever you need to do to protect your children. You all sound scared of him.

You could speak to nspcc for advice.

Personally I'd be making sure DC's education on personal safety reinforced, and honestly seriously considering nc between fil and DC or at the very MOST very closely supervised and any inappropriate comments or touching from fil quickly and firmly stamped on in such a way that both fil and DC know it's not on.

I can also completely understand pps suggestion of warning fil off!

I think he's hiding in plain sight and no one wants to call him on it. He's a pervert.

My abuser said to me so many times that I was "imagining it" "exaggerating" that I honestly BEGAN to doubt my own memories. I then started therapy due to something else and it all came flooding out and actually I remembered other things.

Your alarm bells are ringing for a reason

I'm very fond of SIL, should I offer support or raise it again? I don't think she would have told me about this if she didn't trust me. Or should I leave it? Ask DH to speak to her?

Speak to her yourself. Thank her for telling you, Make sure she knows you absolutely believe her and leave the door open for her if she ever wants to tell you anything else. She obviously does trust you and cares for your DDs. It must have taken a lot for her to tell you this - prepare for further revelations

I wont go into details but unfortunately my step dad was the same, inappropriate etc.

Personally for me I would not allow my children anywhere near him or to be influenced by him in any way. I would also sit my DH down and explain to him why I do not want any contact or be around someone like him. As for your SIL it might help to suggest councelling, it did not help me very much as it just made me angry with my parents but some people feel talking to a stranger about it and just getting it out helps.

Good luck.

The mere thought that he assumes that writing a book about something as taboo as that is ok is beyond comprehension. If he ever brings it up just remind him about the new pornography laws that were brought in 2 years ago by the government which includes Erotica.

Thank you everybody.

DH's family have always been a bit..odd..but FIL can be very controlling so it's a bit of a don't challenge him thing. FIL is very rich and has in the past tried to make us dependent on his money. Perhaps this is why SIL hasn't challenged him.

Sorry if this is coming across as dripfeeding, I'm just starting to look at things with new eyes..

No no no, keep them away. Your children are more important than FIL will ever be.

I know you don’t plan on doing nothing, hence this thread, but just imagine if in 20 years your children tell you something happened to them when you had suspicions all along.

OP,
Your DC are the important ones here.

Don't get involved let SIL sort her own stuff out.

Keep your DC away from the pervert GF

Doesn't surprise me at all he's controlling. Prepare to find out he was abusive in other ways too.

But I feel as though we live in a society where we are shamed for raising concerns like this, or we're making it up or hysterical or imagining it

^ Sod what anyone else thinks. The problem with our society is that we're too polite, well tough. You feel like this for a reason, your senses are telling you this man is NOT to be trusted.
Follow those instincts, protect your children. If it upsets everyone and you lose a few friends/family over it, well, were they worth having in your life anyway?

This is the very thing that allows creeps like this to get away with it and get off on it.

Call him out!

I was abused by my father and he was always pulling that sort of shit. The thing is, that stuff with his daughter can’t be explained away, can it? What if your DH did that to your children, would you be willing to hear excuses? No. Keep him away from your kids.

From what I read on MN, abusers can abuse with other people in the room, so it's not enough simply to now allow your DC to be alone with him. He shouldn't be allowed in their company.

My uncle made me sit on his lap when I was 12. Nothing else happened but I still cringed in his presence after that and when he called on the phone. Haven't seen him in years thankfully.

I agree with pp - he constantly tests how far he can push boundaries. When your dh read that novella what did he do? Nothing? that is another boundary pushed by FIL. if anyone in my family sent me that novella, I'd text and say "kind of amazed at the incest plot line - especially as you treat is so casually. think most people will be very creeped out by this".

I'd have the lowest contact possible and would not let my children close to him at all - I mean physically as well as emotionally. My guess is he will push a boundary with one of them soon. Abuse/the kind of shit your SIL had to put up with can be one in full view. I was touched by a man sitting in my parent's sitting room a little behind my parents sight line.

I wonder what else went on with your dh as a child??

From what I read on MN, abusers can abuse with other people in the room, so it's not enough simply to now allow your DC to be alone with him. He shouldn't be allowed in their company.

This.

I was sexually abused by our family GP when I was about three (he sat me on his lap and rocked me about on his leg, only it wasn't just his leg he was rocking me on). My mother was sitting opposite and told me off when I struggled to get off his lap. I don't think she had any idea what he was doing.

Your FIL is being horribly inappropriate. That whole sliding his hand underneath his daughter's bottom is really unpleasant, as is the incest book. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

You won't gain anything from trying to talk to him about this, I'm afraid. When he's around keep your children close.

Thank you, feeling quite tearful now - tried to have it out with DH. He just doesn't want to discuss it. Any of it.

I think he thinks I'm overreacting :(, but at the same he's very withdrawn and upset about the whole thing.

I will obviously safeguard my own children - thank you for all of the advice there, FIL won't be seeing them and that's that. FIL is not particularly keen on me anyway so if he wants to pin it all on me being awkward, so be it.

With the DC being safe and sound that's the obvious major factor sorted. I am bothered about DH, though, and SIL.

It's not normal to have a father like this, is it?

It's a horrible thought but your DH may have been a victim himself. Children were present during the swinging parties, he could have seen things that have traumatised him or worse been groomed and abused.
I hope you can get him to talk to you.

No, it’s not normal Strings

But you’re doing the right thing keeping your dc away from him

SIL might just be telling you select details. There may be more to what happened but she’s not ready to share yet.