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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

FIL: Would this trouble you?

82 replies

ivegotnostrings · 04/04/2018 11:57

DH has never really seen eye to eye with his Dad.

FIL describes himself as bohemian, had a high flying career but lived quite a mixed lifestyle.

DH says his parents were part of a big swinging community when they were growing up. Was quite communal with partner-swapping going on etc, quite open about it all. DH says the focus of their childhood was basically communing with these other families (kids away playing upstairs, DH playing downstairs).

Anyway, SIL had a few recently and sort of said to me that when she was growing up FIL was slightly strange with her - a lot of 'jokey' bottom touching when she was a little girl, comments about her breasts when she was a teenager, nothing she'd describe as abuse as such, but definitely a feeling of very poor boundaries and being a bit creeped out.

Anyway, I'm fairly live and let live, but this last bit from SIL set alarm bells ringing, especially as we have primary aged DDs.

Finally, DH has been a bit cagey and touchy lately and not wanted to see FIL at all. I finally pinned DH down about it and asked him what was up. Apparently FIL has taken up writing and sent DH his first novella.

It's a story about incest, it includes a sex scene. Between family members. But it's written not in a shock-horror way. It's just incidental to the story, as if that's a very normal thing? Normal for two very close members of the same family to have sex. He's just kind of written it into the plot.

DH doesn't want to talk about any of this at all, esp not to FIL.

But my mother instincts are screaming here.

Sexually promiscuous, ok, that's kind of his business I guess....Sexually intimidating to his young daughter, not ok - but SIL does not want to raise this with him or for us to do so either so I kind of have to pretend I don't know that.

Thinks incest is....normal? So far from ok that I'm wondering if I've stepped into a parallel universe. Do Father's do this? Write stories about incest and send them to their children.

DH doesn't want to make a fuss but I am getting great big clanging alarm bells about this man being around my DC. I don't let them be alone with him anyway, but I'm wondering if he should be allowed to have any influence over them at all?

OP posts:
Graphista · 04/04/2018 23:27

No it's not normal but sadly happens too often Sad

pallisers · 05/04/2018 00:28

So sorry OP. I suspect your SIL only told you some of what went on - or some of what she felt about it. That she told you at all says something - I think she was warning you.

I suspect your dh also had his boundaries breached/was abused as a child/young teen or felt completely shit about what was going on in his parents' house and felt incapable of protesting. Otherwise his reaction to the incest story would be "for fucks sake dad, that's weird"

It may or may not not have been his father who abused him but it is entirely possible if swinging was going on downstairs, someone ventured upstairs at some point - whether that was pre-pubescent or post-pubescent hardly matters. Your dh lived in an entirely unsafe home and he knew it.

Best of luck to you and your family OP. Your dh and his sister are, I hope, proof that sometimes people manage to escape their shit, neglectful upbringings and do ok, pick good partners, rear children in safety

Hypermice · 05/04/2018 08:32

Having a child present during a swinging party is abuse. Even if no one lays a hand on them. Just havingvthem present and aware of what’s going on IS abusive.

I feel very sorry for your DH and SIL. They may have an awful lot of unpleasant stuff from their childhoods to unravel.

You’re doing the right thing - protecting your children. DH may need some professional help as well as the support you undoubtedly give him.

Original poster
ivegotnostrings · 05/04/2018 08:33

Thanks all.

I need to also have a think about how I explain it to the DDs, not so much now but when they’re older.

One thing I’ve realised with recent news events is that there’s very little protection from abuse in law. It really is down to us to protect our DC and act on instinct.

I do still feel like calling FIL out on the novel, I’m also wondering who else he sent it to or if he ‘kept it in the family’ Sad

OP posts:
Hypermice · 05/04/2018 08:36

Are there other children in the immediate family? I would also be having a word with their parents.
And keep the novel - it’s all a paper trail if you ever need it.
Can I also say well done? So many of these threads descend into ‘well I’ll just keep an eye on him round the kids I won’t rock the boat.’ It’s genuinely heartening to see decisive action, you’re protecting your children

Weezol · 05/04/2018 08:43

You've already had better advice from others than I can give, but please be assured, what your SIL & DH experienced as a child was't normal or acceptable 30 years ago.

I'm in my forties and if this had happened to me back then, any normal parent or teacher would have intervened. There wasn't the type of support or protection that is becoming available now, but there were ways and means.

Original poster
ivegotnostrings · 05/04/2018 08:44

Thank you hypermice. No other children, thankfully.

OP posts:
Bekabeech · 05/04/2018 08:59

You can phone the NSPCC for advice, I would also look for meetings on protecting your children from abuse (and maybe suggest your DCs school hosts one).

I also have found https://www.rainn.org/articles/how-can-i-protect-my-child-sexual-assault to be helpful advice.
Generally you and DH need to inform yourselves, and discuss how to take steps to protect your DC in general.

DHs family sound a bit toxic. Consistently undermining "boundaries", adults having sexual adventures whilst children are in the same house and are aware of what is going on - sounds extremely unhealthy. Bringing other people in contact with their children/teenagers in those kind of circumstances sounds unhealthy - you wouldn't take your teenage daughter for a drink in a "hook up" type bar.
Then FIL attempting to control and make his children financially dependent. Nevermind this "Novel"...

SandyY2K · 05/04/2018 09:00

I think your DH and SIL went through a lot more inappropriate stuff as kids... but ate repressing it because it's really hard to get to grips with and accept. It's also very painful to think about and there's the fear of facing the horrible reality.

I also think your SIL may have (indirectly) been warning you in order to protect your DDs.

SleepFreeZone · 05/04/2018 09:18

I think the key here is that your FIL is loaded. That always muddies the water as no one wants to fall out and lose their inheritance. Is there a MIL still alive?

SleepFreeZone · 05/04/2018 09:21

I would also be wondering whether the children might have been caught up with the invited adults being inappropriate with them?

Wishfulmakeupping · 05/04/2018 09:28

You’ve made the right Decision op - I think Sil has been incredibly brave sharing that with you she was obviously warning you in her own way.

SeaEagleFeather · 05/04/2018 14:11

So your FIL is very rich, tried to ensure your dependence on him.

He doesn't like being challenged.

Then he has a track record of being completely inappropriate with his own daughter, of this novel with incest in and of making you very uneasy with the way he is around your daughters. That's not including the normal boundary-breaking that swinging is usually associated with.

Put these pieces together, you have a sexual and controlling predator.

Whatever his son thinks, you need to be mama-bear and protect your children and to hell with what he thinks.

"FIL your novel and other aspects of your behaviour have been completely inappropriate. If you can't see it for yourself, then I have to act and protect my children. We won't be seeing you for a very long time".

I think you own a thanks to your SIL, though I wouldn't breathe a word of what she's confided in you to anyone else, not even your husband. He's in too difficult a position.

Please hold hard to your instincts and the greater picture that this man's actions have drawn and do whatever you have to to keep your daughters safe. There's too great a risk with him of, 20 years down the line, your daughters telling you he assaulted them. It might not happen (though the boundary erosion is bad enough) but if it did you'd never forgive yourself.

fluffyrobin · 05/04/2018 14:29

I would circulate that novella of his to EVERYBODY in his circle: print copies if need be and then ask whether anyone thinks that is appropriate for a father to send it to his son who has young dds?

NEVER keep other people's perversions/secrets if you have young dds.

If he is proud of his novella he won't mind you outing him on it. You will also take away any pressure on you to think it's ok.

I would also send a copy to the police for good measure and enquire whether he is on a sex offender list.

dizzy174 · 05/04/2018 16:32

NEVER keep other people's perversions/secrets if you have young dds

ReginaBlitzkreig · 05/04/2018 20:19

I had a friend whose parents were like your FIL. She had seen far too much and was quite messed up. Her brother was even worse. My parents were very strict about how and when I had contact with my friend, and they were right to be.

Don't feel you have to explain yourself too much to your DH or FIL or anyone: this is an obvious risk- the thing speaks for itself. Sometimes you just have to be 'like it or lump it' and this seems to be one of those times.

autumnkate · 05/04/2018 21:47

Your SIL has told you because she is worried about your daughters. 100%

Original poster
ivegotnostrings · 05/04/2018 21:55

Thank you, your support is really helping.

DH is thinking about what he wants to do in terms of seeing him again. But the DDs and I will be no contact whatsoever. We can't take the risk.

I am also actually livid with FIL for what both DH and SIL have had to go through growing up. FIL is quite a charismatic, flamyboyant person and he's a big personality who never really gets challeneged.

But I am not going to go along with it. I need to work out what to say to other family members, if they ask.

OP posts:
fabulous01 · 05/04/2018 22:04

I am sure I read once that most sexual abuse is by a family member who was trusted

I would tryst your instincts

Graphista · 05/04/2018 22:07

"FIL is quite a charismatic, flamyboyant person and he's a big personality who never really gets challenged" hmm which now deceased dj and presenter does THAT sound like.

You're right to go nc op. I wouldn't trust him either.

RebelRogue · 05/04/2018 22:09

FIL is quite a charismatic, flamyboyant person and he's a big personality who never really gets challeneged.

Ofc he is ,most of them are.

Let your DH make his own decisions about seeing his dad. He needs to make that choice by himself. As long as the girls are kept away from him. I'd mention though no social media interaction either at any point for them,and to him not to send pics/videos of the girls.

Graphista · 05/04/2018 22:10

Fabulous - true in my case, and I also attended a lecture by a specialist in paedophilia once who said he believed many familial paedos were "lazy" paedos as they had victims handed to them essentially. He believed if they didn't they would become the more stereotypical predatory paedo. At the time familial paedos were seen as less violent, less dangerous, less "bad" - we know better now

Talith · 05/04/2018 22:13

At best he sounds fuzzy on boundaries and sleazy as hell. Don't allow him to be with your kids on his own.

igglewhat · 05/04/2018 22:14

You are doing the right thing by limiting contact. I wouldn't be in the same street as him. This must be very distressing for you and your family Thanks

SurvivalOfTheUnfittest · 05/04/2018 22:18

I was sexually assaulted by a relative as a young teen in full view of everyone playing. It was brief, but definitely occurred and when I raised it, it became apparent that the family member had done in to another family member repeatedly historically. I am pleased to read that you are going to keep DDs away from FIL altogether because they will have the same early warning signs that you are feeling. Talk to your girls about these feelings and why they are important for keeping us safe.