How to train a man ?

[Rideforthehills]

Genuine question! My DP can be lovely and voluntarily do useful things around the house, cook a meal, hang out washing, empty a bin but when I ask him to do something his reply is always 'no'.

It doesn't seem to matter how the questions is phrased or how nicely I ask he won't do anything to help me when I directly ask him to.

Example ( 5 mins ago) 'Please can you clear away the bags/shoes/clutter you have left by the door so I can clean the floor'
'No'
' You don't have to do it right now but please can you do it in the next hour or so as I would like to wash the floor.'
'No, don't nag me. I'll do it when I'm ready.'

Now, I'm not looking for the usual responses of "dump him!' 'he is a dick' 'childish loser' - I say those things in my head ;-)

What I need right now is any success stories or psychological tips on how to turn this around. May be from mothers with toddlers who won't tidy their bedrooms ;-)

SO, any one ever successfully trained a man?

Tbh I think it is passive aggressive to do that.

The thing is, if you cannot come to an adult agreement about the state of the house and shared responsibilities, and the man doesn't care enough about your opinion/feelings to make efforts to meet you half-way, you're at an impasse.

You don't have many options:
you bag up all his shit in binbags on his side of the bed or bleach-mop over his shoes,
you give in and accept you do it all & pick up after him with or without regular massive rows/resentment
or you gradually disengage emotionally, which might lead to disengaging totally and splitting.

Either he gives enough of a shit to try, or he doesn't.

The following is all lifted from the article but it is a good article in its entirety:

Passive-aggressive people act passive, but are covertly aggressive. They’re basically obstructionist, and try to block whatever it is you want.

• Passively resists fulfilling routine tasks
• Frequently makes exaggerated complaints of misfortune

It’s important not to react. When you nag, scold, or get angry, you escalate conflict and give your partner more excuses and ammunition to deny responsibility. Not only that, you step into the role of parent – the very one your partner is rebelling against. Don’t be vague, drop hints, blame, or allow yourself to pay-back in kind.

category12 No it is not passive aggressive. It is actually aggressive. And I have done it in the past and I have owned it. Very clearly saying “if you won’t cooperate I will do xyz to allow me to complete my daily tasks...”
I stopped washing his clothes for a season. I told him I would, then I did. He (after realising what side his bread was buttered) suggested I wash ALL the clothes and he puts ALL the clothes away. Great compromise and we still use this system.

The thing that struck me about the op is that, as usual, cleaning is her job while the man ‘helps’.

It needs to be his responsibility. So he sees the mucky floor and cleans it. Rather than leaving it because it’s something you do.

I solved the issue quite effectively. Although it did take dh losing his job. I went out and got a full time job- making the cleaning, kids and housework his responsibility. I no longer ask him to “help”, if he doesn’t do it, it doesn’t get done.

We need to stop this mind set that men don’t “see” what needs doing. They do. But it’s a bit like doing a colleagues work for them- you just don’t, unless they ask. And you’re within your right to refuse.

Yes we have reached an impasse with a lot of bitterness as the outcome. No amount of asking nicely has worked. Thanks all for your opinions/insights. Fascinating thread.

I think it's futile to think that you can change anyone.

You accept them for who they are.

By all means lay your expectations of what both of you are committing to the relationship or the housework or child care etc.

But it only works if both are committed you can't wave a magic wand to make him change his attitude?

"dump him!' 'he is a dick' 'childish loser' - I say those things in my head

You need to start saying them out loud not just in your head.

Why do you think this is the best you can do?

Let’s not make aggressive a dirty word.
Remember it has two meanings:

Aggressive:
•ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression.
•behaving or done in a determined and forceful way.

Now the second meaning can be very positive. Determination is a positve quality and undoubtedly necessary if we wish to succeed.

Passive. Ugh. Now that is an ugly word:

Passive:
•accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance.

Totally incompatible with the concept of a relationship with another person. Unwilling to participate. Yet we often hear as a description of a person, on its own, in a complimentary way.

Yes, Nottaken, I read the article afterwards and take your point.

Stand by the rest of my post, tho.

And I do think a woman often feels more concerned if her behaviour is labelled aggressive, or even determined.

These are labels men are often raised to be much more comfortable with.

(Disclaimer: yes, NAWALT/NAMALT)

Xpost

Unfortunately you can’t train a man; that has to be out-sourced to your MIL - and any programme she devises has to be implemented very early in the child’s life.

Whattt? Blame MIL? What about FIL?

how do you deal with accusations of passive aggressive and bullying, which my lazy DH does when I chuck his stuff? He’s repeating it constantly that I’m questioning myself...

Milomonster, it's not easy when your head has been filled with his criticisms of you for so long. But what you do is give yourself a headstart on that freedom you're heading towards. You imagine a bubble around you and everything he says stays outside that bubble. You make a conscious decision that since you don't care what he thinks any more, you're not going to give it headspace. Now if someone you love and respect has a concerned word about something you've done, that would be a different matter.

It's not easy, like any complete change in thinking. But keep practising. Have something else to think about when your mind strays towards wondering if he's right when he says blah blah. Changes you want to make to the house once he's gone, maybe. Something positive and forward-looking.

Six months after he's gone, then you can think about it all if you want to and do some self-improvement if you feel it's necessary. Chances are by then you won't care what he thinks.

Posting on MN for a reality check is also good, of course!

Category I agree with your post and I think it sounds like Milomonster and stbxh are past reconciliation stage - she just needs to keep her sanity and not let him mess with her head until this is over.
She needs to be strong in her integrity that she is doing all she can, so as when it comes to lawyers and settlements he doesn’t manipulate her to take less than what she is entitled too because of her ‘abusive’ (let’s be very clear though, NOT ABUSIVE) behaviour.

The next time he brings up the charity I’d dial the number and hand him the phone. This passive man wouldn’t even do that! That would make him proactive and he is too busy acting like a victim - it’s where he is most comfortable.

Dh is in counselling now. I had to aggressively push that as an agenda. Now he is in, I don’t ask about it unless he offers - it’s his journey. But I love him and I love our family and he needed help and so I had to be a bit aggressive to counter his passive. We would have split up otherwise.
He is already grateful for the progress he is making. Even he knew his behaviour wasn’t acceptable. He just needed help. He wasn’t able to change it on his own.

Whattt? Blame MIL? What about FIL?

Unless FIL has under-gone training from birth, sadly yes..

So if OP has a son, it's her job to counteract lazy, pass-agg husband's example completely in order to teach the son to be a good partner in future. If she fails, her DIL can blame her?

Good to know

Unfortunately you can’t train a man; that has to be out-sourced to your MIL - and any programme she devises has to be implemented very early in the child’s life.

Nonsense. You can’t train a child either. You can set a great example... so I guess in a very real sense that has to be outsourced to the FIL in early life.
OP was obviously being light hearted in using the word training, but you don’t train a husband, and you don’t train children - unless you’re a bit of a dictator. The desired outcome should be a rebalanced relationship, not a ‘dog and their master’ dynamic.

I found a very powerful question to gently ask my dh was, “how would you feel if Dd married a man who behaved in this way?”

He had the decency and honesty to admit he would be devastated.

I gently reminded him that daughter’s very often ‘‘marry their fathers’. That is, to them, their father is the blueprint of a man.

I believe you can “train” an adult, though whether it is ethical or you would want to is a different matter. (There are books about this very thing.)

For example, many times of asking, then telling, my MIL not to telephone after a certain time and her ignoring, meant that the landline was unplugged after 6.00pm and she was blocked on my mobile. She learned and I could stop unplugging.

So, if DH leaves his stuff in a place where it is in the way and you want it moved, ask him to move it or consequences . He’ll either learn or leave.

For those of you who suggest piling up partner’s stuff, mopping over them, binning, etc., (which I think is an entirely reasonable response), how do you deal with accusations of passive aggressive and bullying, which my lazy DH does when I chuck his stuff? He’s repeating it constantly that I’m questioning myself...

You shrug and don't give a shit. Who cares if it's passive aggressive or not? If someone is treating you like crap, there's no law that says you have to be nice to them. You can't hit them or abuse them of course, but it's perfectly fine to be indifferent.

The thing is, I don't think this is healthy in a relationship which is why my ultimate advice is to leave.

This thread has worked for me, as I am now laughing about how seriously people are taking this. Really? Because I'm slightly aghast at how lightly you are taking the utter lack of respect from a person who is supposed to love and care for you. But at least you're out having fun, which is probably a good thing, because life at home doesn't sound like much of a giggle

Really? Because I'm slightly aghast at how lightly you are taking the utter lack of respect from a person who is supposed to love and care for you.

Completely agree.

I'm guessing they're all the same women who think we have no need for feminism and men need porn or "can't help themselves" when it comes to any of the other eleventy million ways in which some men disrespect women.

Ach, just taser him. Truthfully though, I just couldn't be bothered with him.