Ok, you buggers (affectionately said). Are some affairs more acceptable than others?

[Koala72]

Right. So, after an unpleasant brush with a psychopathic sociopathic female who attempted to break up our family, I have studied the whole business of affairs for a while now.

And this is the question to you lot:

A lot of men - pretty much most men - seem to have sex or an EA out of their main partnership at one time or another. I did a survey of all the men I know, and only found a couple who hadn't (and I mean family, extended family, all friends, colleagues, neighbours - all of them).

Let us just swallow the bitter pill and say ok, this is likely to happen.
(for argument's sake)

Now - whereas an affair with a woman who intends to stay with the guy, and therefore this will involve him leaving his main partner and possibly kids, is clearly very destructive and life-changing, is it ok for him to have an affair, dalliance, EA, whatever, with a woman who doesn't want him to leave his family?

So, she wants to see him a couple of times a month, talk to him, have him as some kind of sex interest, but the last thing on earth she would want would be for him to leave his main family. Mutual discretion, controlled behaviour, both sides safeguarding any families involved so that they just have a private relationship which in some way helps them, and hurts nobody.

Isn't this OK? (given that if it's going to happen, it may as well happen in a way that doesn't hurt anybody??)

All hypothetical, of course.

Offred - I don’t know what sort of friendships you have, or what you consider judging.
I believe in people making their own choices - and I am not a pastor, and I don’t validate, or discourage people’s behaviour.
I listen if people want to talk.

And - all people are biased by pre-existing personal beliefs and own experiences too.

I just try to see all sides of the situations - so for me - nothing is universally harmful or positive. All situations are different.
(In th context of this conversation)

That’s what I mean, there are differences between supporting people and supporting people’s choices.

Between supporting people’s ability to make free choices and supporting whichever choice they make simply because it is a choice and without reference to structural and personal factors that limit their freedom to choose.

Between understanding why people make choices that are not ideal or harmful to themselves or others in the short or long term and assessing a choice as not harmful because in the current and limited situation a person is subjectively happy and satisfied with the choice or finds it preferable in comparison to other choices that are available or feels they lack other choices.

Part of assessing harm and risk involves assessing what the consequences attached to a certain choice may be, in the case of an affair you need to consider the consequences of being found out as well as the consequences of not being found out and the burdens attached to the maintenance of an affair for yourself and other people.

Seeing all sides of the situation, which you have consistently failed to do on this thread when you repeatedly cite the cheating spouses current good feelings about the affair, has nothing to do with deciding nothing is harmful or positive.

You’ve clearly decided that there is some inherent higher value in not looking at anything beyond the current and the subjective.

I don’t believe that at all. To be really supportive to someone you care about I think you need to lead them out of the right now and look at the ‘how I got here’ ‘what my choices are’ and ‘what the risks are’

And IMO everything is made up of a delicate balance of both harmful and positive. This is why it is so important to look at things more deeply re why and what. In the case of affairs the positives of feeling better about oneself or one’s life are selfish, unsustainable, directly prevent positive change by covering up problems without addressing them, temporary, difficult to maintain and involve directly imposing restrictions on another person’s self determination etc and are massively outweighed by the harms which is why I say that broadly affairs are harmful.

(Even if the vast majority of people who are in affairs experience them as positive)

And there is also a difference between saying ‘affairs are harmful’ and ‘all people who have an affair are always awful people’

Or even agreeing with people and supporting them.

Ravenmum - you’d be surprised how often discreet and undiscovered are happening around you.
I wouldn't be at all surprised considering the number that have been discovered. There are bound to be plenty that haven't been discovered yet.

many women I know in their mid 40s - are tired and bored a bit
Cry me a river.

these women don’t get obsessed with checking their H’s comings and goings, or their internet viewing history. They stay together - because it’s an active choice for them. And - it works.
I didn't obsessively check anything either but that was not because I didn't mind my ex having affairs, it was because I trusted him. In my case his discreet affair was discreet for about 3 months.

As to the comment about the husband ‘throwing wife out’ and using affair as a bargaining chip - really..... What is that - Middle Ages or something?
It's what happened to my friend last year. He told her to leave; he stayed in the house with the kids. She agreed to this becuse she didn't want him to tell the kids about the affair. Are you suggesting that this sort of thing never happens?

A lot of men - pretty much most men - seem to have sex or an EA out of their main partnership at one time or another

Koala, I agree with you. I work in a male-dominated industry and I was shocked to discover that at least 95% of the men in my workplace have had sex outside their marriages. Like you, I was also naive and thought the majority of married couples were contented and faithful.

Of course, there are varying degrees of "affairs", some of the guys have had a drunken ONS. Two of the guys openly admit to hunting for women to sleep with (they go on sites like Fab Swingers, and POF, meet a local woman, have sex then block her so the wives don't find out). They have no intention of leaving their families, ever.

I'm not saying that any kind of affair is right, or less harmful than others. I was just shocked at how rife it is.

In all my experience it's been women that have had affairs. Every relationship I've seen break up due to affairs...It's been a woman in her mid 30s that has had the affair leaving a bewildered husband behind. So far I haven't seen a man have an affair in any of my circles, I'd genuinely be fascinated to see statistics on this.

Just - sounds like you're talking about relationship breakups rather than affairs.

IMO it is sexism and different types of inequality that influence cheating whether it is men who believe evopsych crap or misogyny which justifies an entitlement to cheating and characterises women as less important, men or women who feel either resentful of being a breadwinner or being financially dependent or who are reacting to control/oppression in an intimate relationship or because someone is trying to avoid being vulnerable, cheating is usually motivated by a struggle for power and self expression.

And there are always much more effective ways than cheating to achieve power and self expression, apart from in the case of the misogynists/evopsych knobhead men for whom the act of cheating itself is the expression of the power and the expression of themselves.

All affairs are bad, whether secret or not... I guess you get people that are in "open relationships" where it would be morally acceptable... I've seen friends do this thinking it would save their relationship and it results in a total lack of trust and the same jealousy issues you would get if you were in a committed relationship. The fundamentals of a committed relationship are honesty, trust and commitment so even secret affairs would absolutely destroy the integrity of this... Plus it would make it all the worse when it would come to light eventually (I don't believe these things could stay secret forever).

I also think it's a bold statement to say that most men are capable of having an affair... I have plenty of male friends and family members that would never dream of cheating on their partners. Don't get me wrong, I know urges might be there, but there are plenty of men that have the self-control to not want to hurt their families.

Offred: you list some of the reasons for affairs.
It’s not a complete list.

Lots of extra-marital encounters happen for a very simple reason - sex. Experiencing deifferent partners, different experiences.
Not everything is about power struggle and/or self-expression.
Some people are more hedonistic that you may imagine.

Something you said in your post about leading others to see and realise something.

I strongly disagree - I don’t want any of my friends to lead me anywhere - and equally - I don’t for a moment presume that my judgements/ideas about life are superior to their.

If anyone asks me for advice - i’ll tell them what I think. But to me - passing judgement, or enforcing an unwanted ‘therapy’ session makes me not a friend but a pastor of sorts.
Someone who thinks they hold all the answers.

I think that polyamory / polygamy is ok -- where all parties know what is happening and are fine with it.

But that's not quite what you mean, is it, OP?

The element of deceit is what makes affairs wrong. The fact that the two parties don't intend to break up any families is irrelevant; they are still breaking commitments/trust to their existing families.

If it is about sex then you cannot have extra marital sex in a monogamous relationship without creating inequalities and power struggles.

If it is about sex then there is nothing stopping anyone from doing it honestly.

I didn’t say leading people to see, I said lead them out of the right now.

It’s not possible to go through life avoiding ever taking a position on anything, it is remiss to always just blindly leave others you care about to make their own choices too.

In fact much as you bang on about not leading people and not having the answers even on this thread you have been stating some affairs are harmless and talking about supporting your friend to continue having hers because in your opinion it is good for her.

People who don’t recognise that all relationships involve negotiation between different value systems, and that this is part of their value, are often people who simply don’t recognise how much impact they are having on other people through what they do.

I deliberately didn’t include sex BTW, because sex is not a primary motivating factor for an affair. How could it be since being in a monogamous marriage reduces the likelihood of being able to access lots of sex with multiple partners.

It may be a thing that is part of what makes people in marriage unhappy or something the knobhead men use to willy wave and assert superiority but it also doesn’t explain why people don’t negotiate open relationships or leave their marriage.

just want to have a bit of extra excitement

Get a bloody hobby! Make new friends! Do somehing productive and stop thinking with your genitals.

Offred - this is a forum for exchanging opinions - and hence this is what I am doing.
Stating my opinion.

The reason I don’t do it with friends when not asked for an opinion is respect for them making their own choices. In their lives. That they live, not me.

And if you think sex drive - and desire to experience different partners is (a) limited to men only; and (b) isn’t a reason for stepping outside of marriage if monogamy - I don’t know what to say other than it’s not like that for many women and men.
Hard as it may be to believe.

As to negotiating an open marriage - easier said then done. At least not in the generation of 40+.
Maybe the younger generation would be luckier.

It’s the deceit that’s the worse aspect, it takes choice away about their life from someone who is usually oblivious. It also makes it very hard to feel quite the same ever again in most cases, regardless of the circumstances and in the vast amount of affairs be they physical or emotional it has to involve deceit. If it doesn’t and both parties are aware and ok then fair enough , but that isn’t usually the case

. But to me - passing judgement, or enforcing an unwanted ‘therapy’ session makes me not a friend but a pastor of sorts. Someone who thinks they hold all the answers.
I wouldn't do that either, have you got the impression that any of us would?

No, I don’t think that is limited to men only. I don’t know why you would think that.

I don’t think desire to experience multiple partners, though often used to justify cheating by knobhead men because it is ‘in their nature as men’, is behind the cheating. That is the excuse they use to justify but the drive is entitlement and to assert superiority and power over women in that situation IMO.

If a friend is doing something that harms them and others then what benefit is there to not discussing that?

The reason you don’t is nothing to do with feeling it is important to respect choice, and everything to do with your personal approval of their affair.

Plus it is all very convenient to say ‘I respect their right to make their own choice’ but in reality what their choice is doing is removing someone else’s choice and affecting their right to self-determination.

Giving advice doesn’t necessarily impinge on someone’s choice or their support either unless you are the kind of person who cannot deal with people not following your advice/way of doing things...

I have now heard about 5 affairs, 3 of which were instigated by women.

I know that wanting to have sex with other people is one reason why people have sex with other people (obviously?!) ... but it's a reason for doing something that's a bad idea and might hurt people really badly, not a great excuse that lets you off the hook.

Offred - you again repeated your line about ‘knobhead men’ - and still wonder why I think you are implying that men are the ones driven by sex?
Women also are - and a few I know - play around because sex with their H’s is unsatisfying. Or not enough.

And sex-seeking cheating is just that - libido-driven sex. It doesn’t have to be driven by the need to put anyone down - neither women, nor men.
In my observation - women who also seek that - are those who were maybe a little more adventurous and sexual in their youths, and dated, and didn’t get married till their 30s....
Then they had kids - and were ‘out it of it while the kids were small.
Then - by some point in their 40s - they wake up and realise that they miss somthing. And want to experience more, while they still can.

Offred - as to your assumption to my not passing judgement and not offering an opinion when not explicitly asked - that that is only limited to affairs - 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️
It’s how I am.

When I speak to my friend who had the affair I say that I can understand why she was tempted. I don't need to tell her that it was a bad idea as she thinks that herself.

I wouldn't say anything in a judgemental way à la "you are a bad person for contemplating that". My ex's affair taught me not to think of people as good V bad, partly as that was how he framed it (with me as the baddie causing his affair) and partly as it opened my eyes to how common affairs are. There can't be that many bad people.

But I would advise a friend against having an affair, if they asked for advice, as I know they usually work out pretty shit, and cause a huge amount of pain, however discreet they are supposed to be. Just like I'd advise someone not to buy a house in a bad area or invest in a poorly performing company.