Ok, you buggers (affectionately said). Are some affairs more acceptable than others?

[Koala72]

Right. So, after an unpleasant brush with a psychopathic sociopathic female who attempted to break up our family, I have studied the whole business of affairs for a while now.

And this is the question to you lot:

A lot of men - pretty much most men - seem to have sex or an EA out of their main partnership at one time or another. I did a survey of all the men I know, and only found a couple who hadn't (and I mean family, extended family, all friends, colleagues, neighbours - all of them).

Let us just swallow the bitter pill and say ok, this is likely to happen.
(for argument's sake)

Now - whereas an affair with a woman who intends to stay with the guy, and therefore this will involve him leaving his main partner and possibly kids, is clearly very destructive and life-changing, is it ok for him to have an affair, dalliance, EA, whatever, with a woman who doesn't want him to leave his family?

So, she wants to see him a couple of times a month, talk to him, have him as some kind of sex interest, but the last thing on earth she would want would be for him to leave his main family. Mutual discretion, controlled behaviour, both sides safeguarding any families involved so that they just have a private relationship which in some way helps them, and hurts nobody.

Isn't this OK? (given that if it's going to happen, it may as well happen in a way that doesn't hurt anybody??)

All hypothetical, of course.

Thank you for your kind post josuk. I am also not allowing anyone to tell me how to live my life and my decisions are not based on what other will say Here on mumsnet we are sharing our experiences and insights with others. We do not wish anyone to go through the hell of realizing that your life was a lie for a while and that the one you trusted most betrayed you. Affairs can be a relaxing funny chatting topic but they are quite often devastating. No one can control the OW or the OM. They can become a 3d party that interferes in your life . You don't like you parents in law interfering so imagine....have a nice day

I do for my parts distinguish between shame and guilt. Shame involves what other say. Guilt involve referring to higher principles of commitments/responsibility/accountability /transcending your primary needs for the sake if your family/friends/society etc Going lightly to an affair does often than not bring the person that engage in it to betray all these principles. I did think a lot about affairs. Is it fair to require someone to be just with you? Is that fair to castrate your male partner and prevent him from having other kids around? Etc etc I already expressed my opinion on the matter. And it is quite clear to me that a committed marriage/partnership with all the tension it involves is the best for us women/children and for the society . French people do not understand my pain and the ones among whom I live now do not understand that I am rebuilding my marriage after what happened. French do not convince me. sorry to say the French women are quite neurotic there-obsessing whether 'he' loves them MORE than his wife/mistress; the way they dress is very important to them etc..in short they live in the eyes of the OTHERS. Sad freedom. I prefer the Western non-French approach: based on principles ...

Josuk, you are welcome to think that anyone who thinks affairs are destructive and should be avoided is a judgemental person who thinks only in black and white. If there's one thing I learned from my ex's affair, it's that you can't make people think well of you once they've decided not to, and trying to change their view of you nonetheless just leaves you stressed out.

I wouldn’t want my husband to do it; ergo I wouldn’t cross that line either.

@ravenmum - I never said what you are implying here.

People are entitled to their own opinions. Just like with the religious people - I respect their right to believe what they do.

What I consider judgemental - on this or any other subject - when people tell other people - ‘you are ‘wrong to think differently from me. World is black and white - there are universal right/wrongs. Only the way I see the world is right, moral, good, etc.’

That - I do find judgemental.
As to affairs - people will make their own choices. As they have a total right to.

@Kidsneedfathers - it’s your life. You live it the way yet feels right to you.
Why bother with what French or other people think about your choices??!!!!
In the end of the day - you do the best you can with the cards that are dealt to you.
You try to do what feels right for you - and hope it works.
And none of those decisions are ‘forever’.
How you feel and what you want now may still be the same in a few years time - or not.
And if not - then you can re-adjust.

Maybe it’s weird - but I think of life as work in progress. Nothing is ever completed or can be taken for granted.

Jos - asking you to justify your position in a debate about a contentious issue is not the same as saying ‘you are wrong, I am right’.

And yes, people will make their own choices re affairs but the fact that affairs happen and will continue to happen is a totally separate issue to a whether affairs cause harm.

I too was an absolute baby and thought this bad stuff only happens to other people and that most partnerships weren't affected. Then when I really started paying attention, I found that loads of guys had done it, whether discovered or not.

I think you’re listening to a bit too much gossip and maybe curtain twitching a bit too much.

Yes, people have affairs but I really don’t believe that it’s the vast majority of men by any stretch. Maybe I’m surrounded by an unusual amount of happily married, decent people but I know many. I’m sure you’ll tell me that I’m being naive but I’m not, I know of people having/had affairs. In fact dealing with this kind of fall out in relationships is actually my job.

Also, all affairs are bad. They are all deceptive, selfish acts at the expense of their spouses so no, I do not believe that they are ever okay.

I never said what you are implying here
I didn't imply, I said. And no, you didn't say, you implied. Constantly repeating how your view (not mine) is because you are not judgemental.

Offred - there is a great book called The Righteous Mind - it’s about philosophy of morals and their evolution.
It also lays it out quite clearly - and based on a lot of studies of people - why discussion of politics, religion, and other matters of beliefs/convictions are, mostly, fruitless.
There is no justification of opinions on these matters. No objective ways of supporting or proving anything.
It all comes down to some very deep beliefs that people hold and rarely change.
And when people have these conversations - they don’t see the same arguments the same way.
That’s why - say a Trump supporter - looks at the same information/argument/logical construct as a Trump-hater Ana sees it differently.
Just an extreme example, to make a point.
There are very few absolutes.
Even if to you some seem like that.

Josuk you brought the French 'book'.
it was a good example as many quote it when condoning affairs. as you said life is a process. I hope you will never be tested regarding affairs. offred I totally agree with te-the distinction between the decision to have an affair and the emotional consequences of its aftermath. The betrayer not only breaks his vows (implicit or explicit-the monogamous aspect of a relationship is often than not its most/main attractive and comforting promise ) but he/she often minimizes its emotional impact on the family/betrayed. They might decide to have an affair -to bring in our relationship a third stranger they never ever can impose on us how we will emotionally or socially react to it. Even their best behavior after discovery might not win back the betrayed heart. And as I said before lightly accepting affairs is taking us backward. Like drugs and hippism did. People must realise how an affair impacts on their partner before engaging in it lightly. Although everyone is entitled to his/her opinions I believe that the ones that must be heard in affairs are the ones who had/will always have to navigate through their wrecking effects..about letting yourself open to life events on which we have no control: nice attitude; even important in difficult times however that does not exclude adopting higher universal principles that help us having control on our future for instance saying a clear no to affairs like you say no to drugs..
.I always thought that the welfare of my kids precede everything; that is a strong principle that helps me have dome lind of cpntrol on my life; I decided to bring them to this world and I am totally responsible for their upbringing in the best conditions possible (the best being defined by common sense and by what is happening to kids raised in various milieu. ..)as it is he is an excellent father -even better post affair- so I try to rebuild it all even not everyone agrees (in fact all the ones who know him well love him and support this decision but there are many many other who say that they would have left him and how can I stay etc ...as I said: I go with my principles.Shame does not direct me. If the best for them would have been that I become a divorced single mum that is what I would have chosen...my h always had a forgiving approach to people including to betrayers ...oh he tegrets tbis attitude now...so principles are important to have control on our life that is full of surprises as it is...

I had an affair and I would have believed it possible beforehand. I was in an Emotionally abusive relationship although didn't recognise it at the time.

It started as a friendship at work (same sex) that moved into EA territory. We did have an affair, for 6 days and I felt very guilty. What the EA did was make me realise how abusive my relationship was. I left my P after the 6 days, and told her that there was someone else. I officially got together with my affair partner 2 months later.

There were no children involved but it was stills shitty thing to do.

15 years later, DW and I are happily married with 2 children.

oneflies I am happy you are now in a healthy relationship. Sometimes life brings us to situations where our principles are tested or in conflict with each other. We might not always stand up to our principles. The most important is never to bend them to suit our current needs/actions. You had quickly caught up yourself and you do not try to sell the erroneous idea that claim that affaird are not important. You had the duty to free yourself from the abusive relationship you were in. Again I am glad you are in a good relationship now.

🙄 it is your assumption that I am judgemental, that my views are wrong, that I lecture people on their wrongdoings etc etc etc....

TBH I don’t know where you get off lecturing me about how wrong I am but also about how no view is wrong.

As I said before, the issue is not that I am judgemental and you are not, it is that I have a different opinion re affairs to you.

Something that you seem unable to grasp or tolerate without insulting me or lecturing me.

Maybe you are misinterpreting that view? Respecting other people who have a different view works mutually.

This is an entirely separate thing to having a discussion where you make a claim that is contentious and then being asked to explain/justify your claim.

‘Some affairs are harmless, even positive’ is the claim you have made. You’ve tried to say you think that because the people you know who are having the affairs are happy with the affair and it adds positive things to their lives and helps them tolerate their crappy marriages.

You’ve tried to say that there is no harm if people don’t know about it.

All I’ve said is effectively that you can’t measure whether an affair is/isn’t harmful by selectively taking only the views and experiences of the person who is having the affair. That there is still harm even when people don’t know what is harming them or that they are being denied self determination as a result of the choices of someone else.

You’ve said people’s choices are paramount but you only apply that as important when it is the choices of the person having the affair. You don’t even consider the choices of the person they are cheating on, their kids or anyone else.

You’ve said your background means you recoil from people’s choices being restricted by moral positions but this means you are perfectly willing to ignore choices being restricted by lies and cheating. This is not an assessment of whether affairs are harmful or not, it’s a reaction to your background.

Then there is a whole load of posturing about who you think I am and how it is wrong to think you are better than someone else mixed with lecturing about how wrong it is to be judgemental and what you think I need to learn to be as good as you!

I'm interested in this subject after falling for someone last year (I hadn't been interested in anyone for over 6 years and was happily single for all that time). Background is that I was a client and we got on really well and the mutual attraction was there but not acted on. However, once my treatment ended (he isn't a medical professional) we kept in touch by text. It was then that he disclosed that he had a partner (which he thought he'd told me ).

I was quite shocked by his revelation as I really had him down as a good person based on the conversations we'd had about religion and culture (he isn't British born). He still wanted to pursue a relationship with me but I turned him down. I did ask him what made him want to cheat and he told me honestly it was because he wanted to. He was attracted to me but loved his gf, in fact they are going to start trying for a baby this year. I don't doubt his answer for a minute.

So, men who love their partners will cheat if the opportunity (as they see it) arises. I've since read a lot about cheating and also discussed it with friends and family. Again, I was shocked by the number of male and female friends who admitted to cheating at some point - and the spread between men and women, gay and straight has been pretty even. An awful lot of them haven't been found out and most of the 'affairs' are over.

I've found Esther Perel's books very insightful, and also MN and the views that people have. Once upon a time it would have been a no-brainer for me if I found out a DP was cheating - we'd be over, end of. Now I'm not so sure?

I've had numerous relationships and don't know if any of my partners have cheated on me, so fortunately I've never had to deal with the hurt and betrayal that infidelity brings.

Cheating won't stop, like war, prostitution, taxes, it has been a fact of life for thousands of years. maybe we do need to redefine our personal expectations of happiness and security?

"All I’ve said is effectively that you can’t measure whether an affair is/isn’t harmful by selectively taking only the views and experiences of the person who is having the affair. "

Well, quite. It's a bit like saying 'fish is good for you', without asking the fish for it's opinion

josuk tdiscussionshe book you wuote I have not read and hence I can't comment on it. IMHO discussions about politics and everything that is not HEART related are not fruitless if people who are involved share some common values, those values that allowed the West to keep from a medieval dark lifestyle to the modern world . (Examples of such values: seeking the truth before the validation of your own personal opinion, scientific approach based on as much facts as possible, critical thinking etc)..if course people who blindly support Trump and the one who blindly oppose him can never have productive conversations on the subject. They are both blinded by their own agenda and ideology through. Univrsal principles and ideologies are not the same . and there are universal principles example : don't kill and don't hurt unnecessarily, once within a relationship your partner has the right to exclusivity in many domains of your life unless otherwise agreed between you...

Sorry for typos. Writing from a mobile with the editor on is terrible. .a correction only '..allowed the West to leap...'not keep