Ok, you buggers (affectionately said). Are some affairs more acceptable than others?

[Koala72]

Right. So, after an unpleasant brush with a psychopathic sociopathic female who attempted to break up our family, I have studied the whole business of affairs for a while now.

And this is the question to you lot:

A lot of men - pretty much most men - seem to have sex or an EA out of their main partnership at one time or another. I did a survey of all the men I know, and only found a couple who hadn't (and I mean family, extended family, all friends, colleagues, neighbours - all of them).

Let us just swallow the bitter pill and say ok, this is likely to happen.
(for argument's sake)

Now - whereas an affair with a woman who intends to stay with the guy, and therefore this will involve him leaving his main partner and possibly kids, is clearly very destructive and life-changing, is it ok for him to have an affair, dalliance, EA, whatever, with a woman who doesn't want him to leave his family?

So, she wants to see him a couple of times a month, talk to him, have him as some kind of sex interest, but the last thing on earth she would want would be for him to leave his main family. Mutual discretion, controlled behaviour, both sides safeguarding any families involved so that they just have a private relationship which in some way helps them, and hurts nobody.

Isn't this OK? (given that if it's going to happen, it may as well happen in a way that doesn't hurt anybody??)

All hypothetical, of course.

Well - I have seen different kinds of ‘stepping outside of marriage’ situations.
For me - an affair - is that sort of arrangement that most spouses fear. When their spouse leaves for the other person, or is tempted to...

And then - there are all kinds of other situations - ranging from one nighters; to occasional encounters with exes, etc - that normally don’t lead to break down of families if they don’t come to light. They seem to provide some release, and to satisfy some yearning for chase/freedom.
And those - despite the typical MN black/white view of the relationships - I think those are possibly unavoidable and less harmful. IF (again) they don’t come to light. Which is best for all involved.

And then there are places like Ashley Maddison. I know a few people - both men and women - who use the site. None of them want to change their family life - but all seem to be missing something in those families. And common wisdom of MN - ‘just leave that family’ - breaks down - when, say one man has a chronically ill wife that he decided to stay as care for, yet he misses human touch.
Or a woman, who’s H is rather abusive, and controlling and she just doesn’t feel strong enough to live.

Or yet another woman with small children and no sex for several years.
The arrangements that websites like that provide both parties is not a typical ‘affairs’ in my eyes.

So - no - I don’t think all affairs are equal.

Yeah, denying someone the right to self determination is no biggie as long as they never find out they’ve been manipulated... 🙄

The ‘finding out’ thing is really about seeing the consequences of the behaviour and taking responsibility for the harm. The harm exists before the betrayal is found out and even if it is never found out at all.

Sure - in a philosophical sense - that harm exist before.
Just like - if a spouse sees someone attractive and imagines touching that person in their head - a theoretical harm exists too.

But in real life - things do happen. And there is different harm.

One/off things are LESS harmful than long and emotionally charged affairs. Many people would even say they won’t want to know about a one/off.

Total honesty doesn’t work. Regardless of how ‘morally right’ it may be. People just can’t handle it.

So - spouse sees someone attractive. Another spouse notices and says - have you been ogling him (her) - and the ‘caught’ spouse says - of course not, dear. I was thinking about x,y,z.....
Both know they are not fully truthful. Both try to preserve some illusion that married people only find their spouses attractive.
Life goes on.

Not just in a philosophical sense, in a political sense too.

Also, in an everyday sense. Many people may not explicitly know, they may know implicitly and their MH may be damaged, there are other tangible harms such as STIs, reductions to family money, worsening relationships with DC and spouse due to diverted time that is as yet unexplained etc etc etc

Not to mention the harm done to the OW/OM...

Imagining something in your own head is completely different btw.

"For me - an affair - is that sort of arrangement that most spouses fear. When their spouse leaves for the other person, or is tempted to..."

I don't think most affairs lead to the cheating spouse leaving.

Of course - imaginging is different - but it’s on the same scale, just at a different point of it....

You keep coming back to just one version of an ‘affair’ - where there are in fact external sights - worsening of relationships, money spent, unexplained absences that arise suspicions....
And - yes - of course - those are harmful....

But - as I said before - there are many verisions. Many - are a lot less ‘involved’ - and people don’t see each other as often, their daily lives aren’t affected. Their children aren’t affected, and their resources aren’t diverted.
Say - a friend of mine has an old friend/ex/etc that lives across the globe.
She sees him a few times a year when he is over in the Uk.
They spend a few hours together. And then go back to their lives.
And exchange occasional messages.
Surely - you can see that it’s a different scenario from what you described.

"Say - a friend of mine has an old friend/ex/etc that lives across the globe.
She sees him a few times a year when he is over in the Uk.
They spend a few hours together. And then go back to their lives."

Yup. Affairs that are more than one night stands, but are not full on relationships where people meet during business travel abroad, for example, don't take time or money away from the family. I'm not saying they're fine, but they obviously don't affect a person's daily life in the same way.

No, it’s really not. In the same way imagining murdering your ex is not the same as actually murdering your ex. One is fantasy the other is an actual behaviour.

People in affairs often arrogantly believe there are no effects, that their behaviour isn’t being noticed etc this doesn’t mean there aren’t any effects and their partner may not have connected the things they’ve noticed with an affair, or be fully aware of noticing things but that doesn’t mean there are no effects either.

What you example means is you friend reckons she is getting away with it.

How many threads have you seen where people say ‘I have nothing tangible but something is just off’ or ‘something is wrong but I don’t know what h/w is different’

Offred - it’s exactly the point.

Affairs that affect life - bad.

Other type of occasional infidelity that many people seem to be dabbing at - those that DO NOT affect normal life - and don’t threaten the couple’s future - they aren’t the same.
Like my friend. She isn’t sitting around dreaming about her old friend. She goes about her normal life.

Well a. Any affair affects the couple’s future as it could be found out at any time and b. How do you know her partner isn’t being affected? You only know what she says about how she reckons she is getting away with it, which is how people in affairs very often feel, until they stop getting away with it because their partner picks up on subtle signs and then reads their texts etc etc

Do you think someone who is having an affair is a reliable judge of how it might be affecting their partner?

All kinds of things affect relationships and now both people feel about themselves in these relationships.
She and her H - have had issues of all sorts - more due to different approaches to household keeping, and children-raising way before she re-connected with her old friend.
She is my best friend, like a sister, really - so I’ve been through all of her ups and downs.

The rare and occasional dose of fun and forgetting about some of her less than enjoyable parts of life - are good for her. Gives her strength to go back we keep trying at her home life.

No matter how much you want to see world in only two shades - it isn’t.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that she is having an affair after a period of issues over inequality in her relationship.

It is nothing to do with seeing things in black and white.

Simply about disagreeing with the assertion that affairs are sometimes harmless.

In your friend’s case if her affair is keeping her with an abusive husband that is a harm and she is playing with fire because if he finds out about it she could be seriously harmed. Giving her the strength to stay with an abuser is a harm too - why would you think that is a good thing? It will harm her and her DC.

What you have done IMO is mix up ‘understandable’ with ‘harmless’.

I think you can be 100% sure that some men haven't had affairs though. Some men don't have it in them.

I don't know a faithful man, not one. Well maybe I am acquainted with some, who I don't know well enough to know if they've been faithful, but of every man I know well, they've all cheated, often many times. I know a few unfaithful women too but far less than I do men. This is just my experience and observations over the last twenty years. I won't have another relationship because I don't believe the majority of men are faithful so it's pointless and boring to even try.

Deceit is the worst part of an affair for me. For this reason I decided to have a discussion with my partner about not being totally exclusive all of the time as the expectation was unrealistic. The key part of the discussion was honesty. We always tell each other when we find others attractive which is often and what we would like to do about the situation. We also have permission to do what we want within reason as long as the other party is aware of what is happenening and we don’t take risks with health. It’s been a very different type of relationship but both refreshing and enlightening at the same time. We are both non jealous types who have been open to experiment and have both done so at times both on our own and together. We have been together for 30 years now so it has worked for us.

Flow - I agree with you - and if more people were more open and secure in themselves - more could reach that level of relationship. And be happier. I do truly believe it.
However - out society isnt yet there.

Offred - not every relationship that struggles is abusive. Not every strong and difficult man. It’s again one of MN cliche’s.
My friend and her husband - are both quite strong characters, and are intersting and driven people. Just different. And those differences, unfortunately only came out as they moved on in life - when kids happened, when income rose, etc. So - no - the ‘affair’ isn’t keeping her in an abisuve relationship.

She made a decision to have her life the way she wants to - raise her kids with their father, et least for now. And, in parallel - occasionally let out steam and do things that make her feel good. Her far away friend - is just that - a faraway friend and occasional treat.

In a different version of her life she’d have married someone else - and after years of marriage they’d still been well matched and all.
But she didn’t. Life isn’t a movie, doesn’t always work out that way.

Affairs, and other forms of occasional treats - they happen and are all over us. Some - bad, some - OK, some - great for the participants.

The rare and occasional dose of fun and forgetting about some of her less than enjoyable parts of life - are good for her. Gives her strength to go back we keep trying at her home life.
That sounds so miserable. I'd rather be alone than having to suck up crumbs of happiness to make up for the misery of living with an unpleasant partner. I don't understand how that is supposed to be a good thing. It's a tragedy, surely?

No matter how much you want to see world in only two shades - it isn’t.
The world is not divided into good people who are never tempted and bad people who are. But that doesn't make cheating a good idea, does it?

I have a friend who cheated on her husband and got thrown out. She and her husband hadn't got on well for years and are probably better off apart. She had good "reason" to seek pleasure elsewhere. But because she did, he now has the moral high ground. The kids don't know why their mum left and he's hinted that he could tell them about her affair, using it as leverage to keep her docile. The affair partner just wanted an affair, so she still only sees him once a month. She fees like a bad person because she had an affair.

How often does this idealised idea of the undiscovered, discreet affair actually work out? It's such a stupid risk to take. Josuk's friend with her occasional trip is sitting on a time bomb.

IMO flow demonstrates precisely that if what people are interested in is not being constrained by monogamy that they find difficult and unhappy then they will negotiate different terms.

There is no reason at all why this is not possible or why people are not capable of or able to do it.

People who cheat choose not to do what flow did and they get tangible privileges for as long as they can keep the lies going.

It’s a mistake to conclude that affairs have anything to do with monogamy.

Jos - I’ve not said every relationship that struggles is abusive.

I have said that your friend’s relationship is abusive because of your clear explanation of the power struggles which are all based on equalities issues and her ‘fuck you’ affair that helps her cope with her husband’s control.

Abused women do make choices, it’s a myth that they are all weak cowed victims of circumstance but just because the majority aggressively seek to equalise the power imbalance doesn’t mean the relationship is not abusive or that the ways they seek to equalise said power balance are healthy, productive or harmless.

People frequently don’t make the decisions that would be better for them because they far more often make the decisions they feel able to make. That doesn’t mean somehow the choice that continues to harm you becomes better than the choice that ends the process by which you have been harmed simply because you have chosen it and it’s understandable for you to have done so.

Assessment of harm re an affair doesn’t just involve ‘the participants’ or what is happening right now.

I’m not suggesting life is a movie, in fact quite the opposite, that it is important to see the holistic and long term reality behind very subjective experiences and decisions.

Some affairs are more understandable than others but this is a totally different thing to them being harmless.

I don't think lying and deceit are ever excusable so there is no better class of affair. If you can't be monogamous, don't get married. If you can't stay monogamous, do the decent thing and leave before you cause someone else devastation. If you are the Other Man or Woman, just keep your pants zipped up or find someone unattached.

Ravenmum - you’d be surprised how often discreet and undiscovered are happening around you. At least - around me - a lot of it is going on. I don’t judge people and listen to them - so friends open up easily and know I would only offer a shoulder and support and a safe place to talk.

So - maybe it’s a function of time, resources and opportunity - but many women I know in their mid 40s - are tired and bored a bit. These women are all well educated and chose to stay at home to raise kids - rather than work - and maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe, in some ways - they feel unfulfilled.
Who knows. Marriages change over time and go through phases.

And most women who have these occasional encounters aren’t miserable - rather - just want to have a bit of extra excitement. And at the same time know they want to keep their family.

Similarly - these women don’t get obsessed with checking their H’s comings and goings, or their internet viewing history.
They stay together - because it’s an active choice for them. And - it works.

As to the comment about the husband ‘throwing wife out’ and using affair as a bargaining chip - really..... What is that - Middle Ages or something?

You do judge people... you judge that their affairs are positive and harmless and that their relationships are not abusive just going through a bad time or struggling and as a consequence your ‘support’ as a friend is directed towards validating their affairs and encouraging them to continue.

That’s up to you, but it is a rather blinkered view based on subjective testimony, and biased by pre-existing personal beliefs and, IMO, an ignorance of the wider context of inequality and infidelity which is, IMO, caused by a failure to distinguish ‘harmful’ from ‘understandable’ and to understand the subtleties of the concept of choice.