How can you tell if you are a really crap unlikeable person ??

[scatterbrain]

Feeling very down at the moment - due to fallout with school-gate "friend" who has suddenly dumped me and organised a get together excluding me this week !

Has made me feel all sad and reflective - and leaves me wondering whether I am actually a deeply flawed person who people on the whole just don't like !!!

How can I tell though ??

I wasn't Miss Popular at school - but I had plenty of friends, lots of friends at uni too - I have three best girl friends all of whom date back between 22 and 32 yrs- who I remain very close to but don't see more that 5 times a year !

I have never been one to make friends easily, although I am an extrover I am also quite shy - and to be honest am not really into these transient friendships that seem to happen between "mums" !

I lost touch with all my antenatal friends after we moved area. Made one new friend - who I now count as one of my best friends at dd's first nursery and then at her school I fell in with this group of mums - our dd's play together so t seemed natural.

Well - all has been well - or so I thought - but one of them stopped speaking to me and giving me really hard looks at school last year, I have no idea why - but I decided to just steer a wide berth as our dd's no longer play together anyway. Well a couple of weeks ago another of the group sent me a really rude email - and then started blanking me ! Then I found out she had arranged a night out without me !

I'm not really that worried about being chucked out of the clique as such - I just wonder why ?

I am older than most of them (I am just 40 and they are mainly about 33) - I WOHM full time and they are mainly SAHMs with younger children - they all text each other a lot and do coffee and lunch etc - I know I don't really fit with them - but I just wonder why ?

It's really brought me down and I feel so low now - on the verge of tears all the time and it's affecting my work ! I feel so sick at school drop off and pick up - I am so totally non confrontational and would never be nasty to someone like that !

I know you won't have the answers - no one else in the group seems to know either - or at least are not letting on !

Sorry to whinge - thanks for reading if you have !

Ripeberry what you said is fab! You have hit the nail on the head - the friend who dumped me has done so in favour of a whole new clique of similarly shallow, over made-up (says she without a hint of bitchiness!) clones who thrive on talking loudly about their plans for socialising with each other and tell you non-stop about all the great dinner-parties they've thrown for each other. Point-scoring doesn't even begin to cover it!

I thought I was in the minority feeling like a complete outsider, I find it really difficult dropping dd at school. I always try to look friendly and make some kind of general chat with the other Mums, but they are always in little circles deep in conversation. Its extra difficult as we live in a small village and everone seems to know each other very well as well as each others business We moved here a few years ago and have not really made any friends, although we have tried. I did used to get invited around to coffee mornings and also host them, but these have fallen by the wayside, and the Mums appear to have paired off. Any contact with them now is usually initiated by myself, but tbh I'm not going to bother anymore as it is never returned. I feel like I am back in school in the dreaded games leeson and I'm the girl no one picks.Sorry to be so negative, you came here to be cheered up, God, I really am crap.

currantbun - don't be sad - it's not you it's them !! They are not worthy !!!

Thanks Scatterbrain, I'm also totally non confrontational, and turn things over and over in my mind after the event. On the outside I do appear confident, but I'm painfully shy.I find it increasingly difficult to make conversation, I think it is since I left full time work, I don't seem to have the same belief in myself, does this make sense? I sometimes wonder if people think I'm standoffish, I hope not. I do have a couple of good friends, but they are at least 2 hours away, so are at the end of a phone line, but it's not the same as having someone to drop in on is it? Maybe I should also take some of the advice offered and approach other so called playground outsiders.

Yes - let's both try and report back here !!!

Remember - lots of other people feel like us - so it's just a case of speaking to a few until we find someone we gel with !

I often found myself in cliques when I was at school. It was HELL. Nowadays I look at the beautiful people in the local clique with pity. Never again will I enter a viper's nest!

Hi scatterbrain,
I have some long-running issues with my mother (theres a big thread on it), and Ive found that it has tended to colour other areas of my life. This doesnT mean anything about your mother, but I just want to relate my experience and what I`ve learned from it.

I have found that in the past, I have tended to attract bullies. I realise now that this is because "normal, healthy" people wouldnT put up with what I would put up with. I mean, they would just think "weirdo" about this Princess, and then shrug their shoulders and move on. Bullies are not attracted to these normal people, because they cant be controlled at all.
Bullying also includes "exclusion from the peer group", or sarcastic, undermining little comments. Adult bullies exist everywhere, at the workplace or at the schoolgates.

The reason we attract bullies is because we havenT learned what is okay or not okay. We donT realise that its important to put ourselves first in any relationship, not to put other people first. But because we desire approval, we keep putting other peoples needs above our own.But part of being human is to desire approval. That is fine, but not at the cost of our self respect or integrity. I read briefly your example of princess running off to the bathroom or something, and people following her. NOT normal adult behaviour. SHe has some issues. A lot of people would have lost interest in her there anD then. Chances are, the other mums have no interest in this Princess, so my main point is, its not you who is wrong. But try building up your confidence by chatting with some of the other mums. I have just got involved in a mother and baby group, and after going for a few months, Ive been invite out for drinks with the "clique". I am really happy, but after reading this thread, I think Ill tread carefully. Ill make sure I keep chatting to all the other mums there, and not get too involved with the cliquey ones.

You are right Sakura. By all means be friendly with the clique but branch out and make/keep other friends. Essential in case it all gets too intense/goes tits up!!

ANother thing about cliques is they often form around what you might call "fault lines" ie areas where people feel insecure whichiever side of the divide they are on. It's possible that Princess Fuckwit has been horrible to Scatterbrain because she feels that SB, being both a WOHM and someone who appears to have better things to do than worry about expensive makeup, actually makes PF look silly and shallow (in the same way that, hypothetically, a clique of well-educated WOHMs could make the one SAHM at the school gates or M&T group, who is keen on girly shopping and make up etc, feel like a silly bimbo). SImilar things would be if you're the only mum who's single/paired up, the only one who is/isn't a rationalist or a vegetarian or BF/FF. If a group of mums hang together because they all used to go to the same school, or they're all ex-Westlife fans, those not involved are more likely not to mind, and the group are less likely to be defensive about it to the point of unkindness.

scatterbrain, you sound lovely and they sound like a bunch of bullying bitches who will get bored and move on to their next victim if you appear unnaffected by them.

Hi everyone - sorry to resurrect this thread - I am the OP but have changed name !

Have had another run in with these lovely ladies and just don't know what to do. Please can I have your advice ?

Someone organised an end of term mums night out this week - you had to put your name on the list - my nice friends kept telling me to put my name down, but I wasn't sure due to all this. But I decided to go and try and be mature about this. None of these ladies put their names down, but on the day itself phoned my friend to say they wanted to come. She of course let me know and I decided still to go.

So - I went and it was OK I thought - none of them said Hello to me, although one did ask me to pass wine and veg at one point. I got stuck talking to a couple of mums I don't know too well, but they were OK.

Someone I know a bit asked me about the "argument" and I said a bit - she suggested that I should apologise but I said I wouldn't as I didn't think it was for me to apologise. There were lots of "looks" exchanged between the two I talked about below and at the end of the night there was some whispering and looking going on - but I wasn't involved and no-one spoke to me about anything.

I went out to the car and was waiting for one of my nice friends - she had to be retrieved as she was talking to the other nice friend who was crying in the loos - something to do with this but no-one would tell me what was going on.

So - today I get an email from the one who emailed me the insult - asking me not to bad mouth her and explaining a few facts to me. Apparently I had slagged off the other woman at another night out (I cannot recall even discussing her!) and upset her so much that 2nd one had to organise a night out to cheer her up ! (that was the night out I wasn't asked to)

I just can't think straight here - This is so weird ! I don't think I did slag anyone off - I was upset that 1st one was blanking me and probably did mention that I couldn't understand it - but I am fairly certain I didn't slag her off. And if I did say anything - who fed it back to her ?

I feel like it's all my fault now - I am the horrible nasty bitch - but I know that's not right !!!

Oh God I just don't know what to do !

There's a kids party tomorrow - I guess I could maybe try and talk to 1st one ?

I have to admit to being alittle confused about who's who here but they do all sound mad as a box of frogs and unbelievably childish.

Is it possible that they are MN'ers and have seen your posts about them and that might be what they are referring to.

I know you hate confrontation but it would seem to me that this is affecting more than the key players so I think you need to nip it in the bud for good now.

I would phone up the one who says you were nasty about her right at the beginning and get to the root of the problem. Before you call write notes on the key points you want to get across before you call so you can stop it from getting too out of hand. Make sure these points are phrased in a nice way rather than anything too accusatory. Tell her that you're sad that this argument has arisen and that you're worried how it is affecting other people and upsetting them so much. By phoning her you will have the advantage of surprise. If she does go off on one to you then I'd something along the lines of "Well I'm really very sorry that we've come to this. I really wanted to clear the air, but it is clear that we're not in a position to move on. It's a real shame that our friendship appears to have been so damaged by all this and its sad that our argument has upset so many other people. I wish you all the best. Goodbye" So if anyone then tries to have a go about it all to you again you can say that you tried to resolve it but the other woman wasn't having a bar of it and that puts you on the higher moral ground because you've sort of apologised and you've also tackled it head on.

I'm sure someone will suggest email - which I suppose gives you a record of what you said but gives her the opportunity to discuss her responses with others and be an uber-bitch once she's thought about how best to counter your points.

Or alternatively ignore the cows - they sound like a hideous bunch.

these are adults??

I would avoid anyone who insisted on being called 'princess' like the plague.

Thanks - making notes is a good idea. I will try and talk to the 1st one at the party tomorrow if she is there. God I so hate confrontation ! Am dreading it - if she's not there I will have to phone I suppose.

What is making me paranoid now is whether the two nice friends knew all this all along and just didn't tell me. We have been out socially several times as a sixsome (with dhs) and have talked openly about all this - and they have said that they totally agree with me - but don't want to drop the 2nd friend although they have distanced themselves a lot and say they see her in a different light.

Hmmm - don't think either MNs - but God yes you are right -

O M G - it just got worse !

spoke to nice friend and it has all gone quite insane ! 2nd friend confronted her this morning and gave ultimatum "LucyLamb or me!" - nice friend has been at end of tether for weeks with her - over her behaviour and manipulation etc - and to cut long story short - they are no longer friends - she has had a torrent of emails from her and they are largely a work of fiction.

Am agog here - dh incredulous !

"Lucylamb or me"? How pathetic! These are grown woman acting like your all still in the playground! Sounds an awful situation for you, just off to read your OP as to what happened originally ......

........ooooooooooh what a palava - have read some but none the wiser as to your "crime", apart from you not towing the princess' line - good on you. what is it you are meant to have done?

Well - initially I was just guilty of having an opinion about which pub to go to - but latterly it has emerged that I had upset the 1st one by talking about her. Except I don't believe I did !

'tis unbelievable - but also very upsetting and I feel very very low about it all.

Have now discovered that 1st one will not be at party so I won't have chance to speak to her. relieved - but also wanted to get it over with really - oh god this is crapola extraordinaire !

Just phone her. This is bonkers.

What are they saying you said about her that was so hurtful?

Would do Pennies but she is on plane - off on hols !

No idea what I an supposed to have said - but I am not stupid so would not have said much - partic as her best friends was sat next to me. Most would have been "X isn't speaking to me - no idea what I'm sposed to have done !" - suspect the woman saying this stuff is jyust trying to provoke an argument as she is livid at nice friends reaction !

it just sounds like you need a nice bunch of friends. Honestly, it sounds like you have more friends than me anyway. Thing is with me, i cant be arsed with insincerity and i can see through it straight away so i dont bother with people much.

I guess that could mean im a pretty crap person then. I was billy no mates at school, not in touch with any of my friends. Had friends after i left school, out of touch with them. Went to uni late, didnt really make any proper friends, more aquaintances. Not really kept in touch with friends from work, i still in touch with friends i made whilst doing phd but those are falling by the wayside too.

As for making friends at M&T well let me tell you, and i think this is actually true, i actually think half of the stuck up mares think im a bit rough and stupid, basically because we are a bit skint just now so im dressing from charity shops and havent had my hair cut in two years (it shows!), so i am definately not a yummy mother, and tbh, i think this bothers people. They are polite etc but it never gets past small talk. I remember the baby group i went to when DD born, most of the other mothers swapped numbers, no on asked me, do i care? not a jot.

scatterbrain, do you want to be friends with people like this? I think you should move on from this strange croud of women and find some "normal" friends. I really wouldn't want to be associated with anyone like this for fear it would deter other mums from befriending me. Just smile and say hello to them and don't get sucked into their strange world any further than you have already - it's just not worth it

No Sausage (if I may be so familiar ?) - that's absolutely true. My only real fear is that people might believe what she says - so others could believe it and avoid me. She is around a lot for coffee-mornings etc whereas I am not - so she has plenty of opportunity to spread her vitriol.

I have started to make some new mummy friends - a couple who are quite new and also work - se we have a bit more in common. I am a bit useless at being sociable - but I know I have to make the effort.

lucyellensmum - I know what you mean. I hate the insincerity, and the people who eye you up to see if you are worth knowing, I seem to fail the tests mainly too !

There are plenty out there who won't take any notice of what these women are saying and anyone who does probably isn't worth knowing either. Let people make up their own minds up about you. It would be far better to have fewer genuine friends than a large group of backstabbing friends. IMO bitchy behaviour from women usually stems from jealousy of some sort. Remember these women just don't matter. Cultivate the friendships that do and be done with them!

It seems like the playground mums are forgetting that it's their DC's that are at school, not them. Scatterbrain - I for one have found many of the mums I've "met" since having DS very rude, and I feel left out most of the time since I'm a WOHM.