Are men and women growing apart generally?

[Lifeisntbad]

Just had a chat with a friend about this. My male and female acquaintances sometimes (with some exceptions) seem so different in outlook that I wonder about this. Obviously they are different from each other as well.
In my immediate circle of 40 /50 somethings the women are generally resourceful independent sociable and open. Many (not all) of the men are depressed, with no enthusiasm, slightly isolated and in some cases a little bitter.
While in one way gender differences seem to be blurring which can only be a good thing, in other ways men and women seem increasingly on different paths, coming together perhaps for having children and then diverging again.

Yeah...he's warm and funny but it's hard work...
Somebody used "battle-hardened" earlier and that is me.

I just can't be arsed putting up with any more shit from the male side of society, the whole male side, not my DH in particular. All of them. It's relentless at the moment. Men, you need to sort out the bad ones, stop leaving us to do it. Get a grip you fuckers.

No one is forced to do PTA
No, they aren't... except if people don't, then those things close, and it's our children that miss out. So, yes, I help run the sports club, because my children are desperate to do that sport. I spend hours taking them to tournaments and competitions because that is what they want, and they benefit directly from that. I visit my MIL weekly, because she's lonely, and I feel guilty I cannot do more, but I work FT.
DH? He wouldn't notice any of that needed doing.

I agree so many of my friends at 50 are living separate lives either with or without their partner. They seem happy apart

Nobody HAS to volunteer for pta or any other Committee. If you do, you've chosen to do it.
Well I haven't personally, and it's hardly the main point of my post.
My point is, this idea that men are these put upon creatures because they have bigger jobs and work longer hours at work is because they usually have someone at home doing every other fucking thing around their actual job.

I love my DP too, but it works in part because he isn't the other parent, so I don't expect parenting of him, and we don't live together. I used to want a husband, and feel like I missed out, but now I am very wary of depending on a man for anything tangible.

For me a lot of men lose their zest for life as they get older. Women seem more content with their lot.

@dogfish1

in almost all the couples I mentioned the women work either part or full time, but in many cases the men have more responsibility for earning and work longer hours, possibly because they're a few years older so their careers were more established when the relationship started

Did you ever stop to consider the many and varied factors that might be contributing to this situation???

• Women are still far, far more likely to penalisedin the workplace for daring to give birth to kids.

*Because of the impact of various roles/expectatons of society/things like breastfeeding on couples, it is still the vast majority of women who have to/end up doing the main childcare/giving up work/going part time

*It's still very common for women to be penalised for the above things in the workplace

*Just because someone earns more, it doesn't entitle them to do less around the home- this alone places a monetary value on "wifework" because as above, women are likely to earn less despite working the same hours/ or even being SAHM is an all ay job, that facilitates the "earning" parent to do their job

*Men/boys are encouraged to take up relatively well paid/reliable trades, girls are not, and frequently don't.

*When (especially working class) women have kids, it becomes a choice between keeping a job and losing money on childcare from the household budget....the above points about trades/NMW jobs is v relevant here.... The woman has the MW job, the bloke has a trade, which often results in working weekends/overtime/call outs...where there will hardly ever be the chance to pick kids up from school/take time off for sickness/fit it around school hours..who do you think is going to end up in a schooltime job/ a SAHP???

Sure, Lana, I agree with some of these points, but my point was more that the couples I know have struck a deal that seems to work for them in the circumstances and that rather than being victims or slaves to their husbands the women seem well able to negotiate. I just don't know any women who would tolerate the sort of inequity outlined here for more than a few weeks. They would tell their DHs to stick it.
PhilODox if your DH can't be bothered to visit his own mum while you do so weekly then sorry, but you married a tosser.

Women being abused right left and centre doesn't even interest him because he doesn't do it and has never seen it done. Well, thanks mate.

This above is how most men feel about all the recent revelations!!! Makes me angry too x

Obviously there are happy and unhappy people of both genders. I'd say as an observation that collectively the men I know are, with some exceptions, unhappy if they are single due to loneliness and unhappy if married with children because many of them express resentment at working in and out of the home even though none of them does as much domestic work as their female partner. Among the women I know are several with MH issues but they have treatment and get support hence seem happier overall despite challenges. The single unhappiness person I have ever met is a man, ironically he is a kind and loving friend just has a black hole inside him

I honestly know not one single couple where there is not inequality in how the drudge work is distributed. It's insidious, and men don't see it so they think a good "deal" has been struck, but it's there.
And as a lot of these husbands are essentially ok men, and there's no abuse, women don't tell them to "stick it" because by then there's a mortgage and kids etc. The status quo creeps up after children are born usually.

Although, as you can see from this thread, many women ARE saying " fuck this for a game of soldiers".

Housework and care of older/younger relatives seem to be the biggest issues here

It’s the sheer number of grown men that genuinely believe ‘I don’t want to’ or ‘I don’t feel like it’ or ‘I don’t know how to’ are totally and completely valid reasons to not do things that are important in varying ways that grinds me down...

As soon as any adult starts saying things like that they get a massive blinking red light over their head saying “ADULT BABY” and then they are sulky and demanding when their partners no longer finding them attractive...

Bloody hell.

In my house, nobody does more. We both work hard, we split chores according to which of us happens to be home and pay someone to do the bulk of them.

And frankly, if I don't want to do something then generally speaking I won't do it. Why should I feel obligated to? This isn't something which is limited to me, let me assure you.

I totally agree with Dogfish1

*It’s the sheer number of grown men that genuinely believe ‘I don’t want to’ or ‘I don’t feel like it’ or ‘I don’t know how to’ are totally and completely valid reasons to not do things that are important in varying ways that grinds me down...

As soon as any adult starts saying things like that they get a massive blinking red light over their head saying “ADULT BABY” and then they are sulky and demanding when their partners no longer finding them attractive...*

Ugh, yes. This has happened with both men i’ve lived with (am still with the second one, happily he listened when I pointed it out). Frequent discussions about housework and the lack of doing it. Offered the excuse of “but I don’t like hoovering/emptying the dishawasher/ wiping the toothpaste off the baisin.” They thought I did it because I enjoyed it.

The first one never understood & got binned. The second was a product of a parental model where his mum did everything and his dad sat around being waited on. He has happily been able to appreciate that’s not how I want to live, & we each do equal amounts.

And frankly, if I don't want to do something then generally speaking I won't do it. Why should I feel obligated to?

Because it is a. Your responsibility and b. It is important for it to be done...

The vast majority of people can’t afford to pay people to do ‘the bulk’ of the shitty everyday jobs that are their responsibility...

No-one enjoys things like picking up their dog’s shit, clearing up a small child’s vomit, scrubbing the toilet etc etc... people do it because it is their responsibility and it needs doing... far too many men actually just never even think beyond ‘I don’t want to’.

I CBA; taking my plates to the kitchen/putting my pants in the washing basket/doing the washing up/hoovering/buying my mum a card etc etc etc and if the family has enough money often it is the woman who organises paid staff who are doing the ‘bulk’ work not the man because all that shitwork is considered to be the woman’s role or what the woman was born being good at...

With all the awful harassment stuff now coming out I almost feel that collectively men and women need some time out from each other, I don't know take a "gap year" or something, go way and have a think about everything before maybe coming back together again..or maybe not, who knows maybe it is time to consider a different form of living. I had 2 family members both in religious orders in earlier generations both with vows (adhered to) of celibacy and both seemed content

I’m finding this discussion really interesting. I think there are lots of shifts going on in society generally and I know I’m re-evaluating implicit assumptions in lots of areas at the moment. My DH is also doing this and we have chatted about how we phrase things around household jobs to the children. But,
I feel like we are both thinking about this and aren’t growing apart. We are approaching 40 with two young children, one boy, one girl.
The next decade will be one of change as I pick up my career again ( I’ve been a SAHM) but I know my DH will be on board.
I have noticed a certain entrenching of views in some men I was at university with, I don’t think my DH is totally typical but not also not unusual.

*Women being abused right left and centre doesn't even interest him because he doesn't do it and has never seen it done. Well, thanks mate.

This above is how most men feel about all the recent revelations!!! Makes me angry too x*

What do you want him to say? Do you always expect an apology from somebody who happens to share the same gender, race or religion as somebody else when a member of their 'group' has done something illegal or wrong?

Not an apology. But some kind of acknowledgement that it's happening?
Racism doesn't affect me personally, but if all my black friends tell me the same stories of abuse and oppression, I'm going to listen, take it in, think about how we can work to change things..not say " yeah..black people can be racist too".

Ifnot, you have it spot on. Acknowledgement is exactly what we as women are after.

As Carol has said I do think there is an issue with some men getting left behind. I have some single friends in their early 30s who are really struggling to find a long term partner. These ladies are catches, attractive, career minded, solvent etc. they just seem to have evolved more. In the old days women had much less choice & had to settle. Now they don't.

From looking at my friends, the arrival of babies & small children have caused a lot of problems. A lot of them were very independent & have all struggled slipping into the traditional wife role.

Another intereating eg of relationship evolution is the Solomor culture in Denmark where more and more non partnered women are having children through sperm banks. The childcare system there helps massively financially of course. Some of these women go on to have relationships with men, some don't.
I suppose there is an element of men having gone in a single human lifetime from being totally dominant and omnipotent over women to being in many cases out educated out earned and non longer a crucial part of reproduction or childcare. It might take another generation for men to adjust to this new reality

Surprised to see so many posters on this thread with the belief that women are out-earning and out-performing men in their careers. Isn't there still a wage gap?

Really impressed at the way women are simultaneously (a) leaving the menfolk behind in the dust and (b) getting a raw deal.