Are men and women growing apart generally?

[Lifeisntbad]

Just had a chat with a friend about this. My male and female acquaintances sometimes (with some exceptions) seem so different in outlook that I wonder about this. Obviously they are different from each other as well.
In my immediate circle of 40 /50 somethings the women are generally resourceful independent sociable and open. Many (not all) of the men are depressed, with no enthusiasm, slightly isolated and in some cases a little bitter.
While in one way gender differences seem to be blurring which can only be a good thing, in other ways men and women seem increasingly on different paths, coming together perhaps for having children and then diverging again.

Sorry last sentence should read an aspect of men becoming ever more distrustful of women's motives!

No idea why I typed that!

Thismeans I thinks it's fine to bring up kids on your own (I'm a single mum too) yes it's hard at times but I'd rather that than in a dysfunctional shit relationship. I'm all for changing the expectations. I'm bringing up my dd outside of the social norm.

I think this is a thing too.

I think it’s because whilst women are increasingly seeking equality men are finding they lack the necessary skills to provide it. In many cases they are not even seeing this depression at not getting a woman to service them as their problem. Many are responding to it as it being a problem with women/feminism hence all the beta uprising, Elliot Rodgers, MRA stuff...

I hope it will change as children who have been socialised during a time where women expect equality grow into adults but I think we are a way from that yet...

We are still raising boys to feel entitled and be dependent on women.

But I watched that documentary on Folsom prison’s 4 day group therapy where people from the outside come in... it was really great to see the very toughest men getting in touch with their feelings and being vulnerable and not at all surprising that it has been an amazing success at preventing reoffending (0 reoffenders!)

The number of blokes I know who expect women to run round after them and cook their meals while working FT is about equal to the number of women I know who expect a guy to do the financial heavy lifting while still demanding workplace equality.
Fortunately not many of either, although some of them are deservedly married to each other. Not sure who you hang out with LanaKanes but I don't recognise them.

Offred that's interesting - which channel was it on? Recently I heard on the radio/a podcast someone talking about group therapy (I think in prison) for sex offenders failing as they heard other people's stories and thought "well I'm not as bad as him" so they didn't feel any need to change.

On the bbc @michelgarnier.

There’s a (now) well known thing re psychopaths and therapy making them more pathological because it teaches them how to ape emotions better.

This group therapy mainly employs the inmates almost as mentors for men who are coming in from the outside and seem to have come on it because they are struggling with various things and haven’t found a way to deal with it.

There’s a lot of meditative, mindfulness, spiritual stuff but also talking about childhood issues, betrayal they have experienced, a bit of physical stuff...

It had me sobbing at a couple of points... especially when one of the prisoners was talking about “learning to cry like a man with my head up” and Dante who was suicidal, also the guy from the outside who was a dangerous ball of rage - he was the one who seemed most frightening and he wasn’t even one of the prisoners (max security!).

I thought it really was a credit to that prison!

It’s a Storyville called ‘the work: four days to redemption’

Thanks offred I will check it out.

IME many men are not emotionally self-sufficient in the least, though they think they are. Many men still rely on women to provide them with the trappings of adulthood/stereotypical manly success (eg family life, supporting their career, a clean comfortable home), and women have been less keen to provide all these things as their opportunities have widened. But many men have not provided themselves (as a group) with the means to replace these things that women provide in a self-sufficient way

The only depressed men I know are in terrible relationships where there needs aren’t being met.

Aww. Those poor old men and their needs

Meanwhile, moving away from the 1950s way of thinking.
Women don't exist purely to fulfill men's needs.

Well, that’s the thing though. People who are in relationships that don’t provide for their needs are generally miserable. Often women try to change themselves so their male partners are nicer to them (and then they eventually leave), often men try to make the woman change, become hostile and demanding (and then the woman leaves)...

I think it is pretty rare for men to ever reflect on why they are unhappy and come up with a solution that isn’t ‘i’m not getting what i’m Entitled to get from my female partner, I need to bring her into line’

Interesting topic and the answer is, I'm not sure.

I think it very much depends on the men and women in question. I'm female, 40-ish and never married and don't have children but have lived with a few partners over the years (teens and twenties). Since the age of thirty though, I've lived alone and love it mostly. Yes, it can be isolating and lonely occasionally but in my experience, that's nothing compared to the mental, emotional and physical toll endured in my past relationships.

Looking at friends who are my age, I'd say the single women who have a good standard of living / education are much happier than my married friends. Married friends seem to spend all their time not only looking after children and husbands/partners, but looking after parents too. If they work it's twice as hard.

I also think that men do less well emotionally and physically alone. Theyve often relied on wives to organise the home and social life for them and take on the burden of emotional support. They seem to want that support as they get older but they also want the NSA sex that online dating offers too so they're torn.

Male entitlement is a massive problem. It used to mainly cause women misery. Now it is mainly causing men misery but they haven’t yet (as a class) consistently recognised that their own entitlement is what is causing them pain.

Virtually every single relationship problem on this board boils down to male entitlement (and the consequent lack of emotional skills; communication, co-operation, respect, equality). Very often even the men who post their problem is along the lines of ‘my woman appliance has gone wrong, give me instructions to make it work again’...

The only depressed men I know are in terrible relationships where there needs aren’t being met
The only depressed men I know are single. Older divorced or forever single men.

Offred it sounds as if the men you know are incapable of understanding themselves or of basic fairness - sorry about that, but it's unrealistic to tar the whole species with that brush or to assume that the problems you read about on this board are representative of relationships as a whole. If you carry a strong enough bias against any group you'll find evidence for it. There are some entitled women and miserable blokes out there but very few of them are discussed here.

Species?

I’m not at all saying all men have male entitlement or that no women do.

Male entitlement however is a thing. A well known, well studied thing. T’would be stupid to deny it’s existence...

I also think that men do less well emotionally and physically alone.

yeah, I see that too.

My DH and I are in our 50s and happy. No depression on his part. It does seem like a lot of his friends aren't particularly happy.

• Some of the one's who traded off their first wives for new younger, hotter wives and now back to the point they were in their first marriages: being bitched at for not doing enough with the children, but with the extra fun of pressure to pay for uni and weddings for the first batch of children. Honestly, as much as their wives post happy pictures, the men don't seem happy. Some are in serious debt and keeping up appearances while paying for two families.

• Some of his friends are single and not happy being single but too much of an emotional mess to be in a relationship. They try and then freak out and blow it up.

Mean while, many of the women I know, while doing awesome and exciting things in their careers, don't have any savings or sense or long term security. It took a lot to get them where they are right now. Some are bitter about how their marriages ended. They don't want to be in relationships again because they are unable to trust. They fear that they will NEVER be able to retire. Some have chronic health problems (possibly related to stress).

It leaves us feeling very lucky.

This isn't something I see in my friends and colleagues.

Individuals vary along many axes. Wanting children, wanting to "settle down", being happy with their work or friendships or relationships. On none of those axes is there a place where you could draw a line and say "men on this side, women on this side".

Lots of the problems described here do exist, but I wouldn't describe them as men and women "growing apart"

What a depressing thread.

I totally recognised use what you are saying Lana
I also think you start noticing the divide as you get older. In your early 30s couples often seem like teams; young kids, striving for a shared goal. By 40s/50s the shine has worn off, people are getting divorced, have had affairs etc.
I also notice the women I know getting more fiery and ambitious, trying new things, wanting to travel, while the 40 plus men...they may be in good careers and wealthy, but their views seem to narrow with age. They get more reactionary, less right on. It's like middle age gives them permission to embrace their inner Tory.
In fact the richer they are the more this is true. It makes me sad because there are some men I have known years that I used to find so interesting and fun, but now, in mixed company, they just dominate and pontificate to the point where I can see why olden days ladies used to retire to another room and let them get on with it.
And who ARE these women that expect a man to "provide"? All the women I know work damn hard, and thats in addition to caring for MIL/ grandad/ sick dog etc etc.
I like the sound of your set up jeux..and love the phrase "asset control".

Getting more and more interesting. I certainly agree with IfNot about women becoming more adventurous and men more conservative as time goes on. I might add that the men that I know, single or attached,who are happier tend to be those with a passion whether sport, music, travel. Almost every woman I know has cultivated a rich inner life and connections and passions but only a minority of men have it seems.

I think post-serious relationship men and women ARE growing apart. Men are far more wary and cautious about women's long-term motives and women are far more particular about who they date, or whether they date at all. Plus women are just so much better at socialising than men that they have a busier social life. Men aren't necessarily unhappy with this though as they seem to need less social interaction to be content. However, when it comes to depression, women are twice as likely to suffer from depression than are men....I'm not sure why, but it's true all the same.

I had a weird dream a few nights ago where all the women in the world lived in Europe and Asia and all the men moved to North and South America. Ships sent sperm one way and took baby boys back the other way. Now that is growing apart! I don't normally have such weird dreams maybe its all the news about at the moment, it does seem men and women have never been at each others throats as much as they are now.