Are men and women growing apart generally?

[Lifeisntbad]

Just had a chat with a friend about this. My male and female acquaintances sometimes (with some exceptions) seem so different in outlook that I wonder about this. Obviously they are different from each other as well.
In my immediate circle of 40 /50 somethings the women are generally resourceful independent sociable and open. Many (not all) of the men are depressed, with no enthusiasm, slightly isolated and in some cases a little bitter.
While in one way gender differences seem to be blurring which can only be a good thing, in other ways men and women seem increasingly on different paths, coming together perhaps for having children and then diverging again.

And honestly the men who don’t hold any of these views don’t generally join in with the #notallmen thing... usually the ones who are very keen to say ‘not me or my friends’ are the ones who are not prepared to acknowledge the ways in which they do hold/perpetuate/benefit from these views.

Dying out, my arse.

The great majority of unpaid work is planned, carried out and organised by women. The assumptions that underpin that are not dying out. Men are just choosing not to think about it. Because they don't want to.

The great majority of well paid work is done by men. The assumptions that underpin that are not dying out. Men are just choosing not to think about it. Because they don't want to.

Offred I didn't make up any stats, just said that I thought the % of men who put racist or sexist posts on social media was probably very low, in the 1% range, so not a good guide to the others. I made clear that was just my guess, which it is. Unfair to accuse me of "making up stats".

George that is probably true across the world and I've never said otherwise, only that in the bit where I live the women seem quite capable of standing up for themselves and do not allow their husbands and partners to treat them like doormats.

But it is true here. And it is more likely than not true in some of the people that you know too. You are very keen to deny it is a problem. What motivation would you have for doing that?

Agree with so much of what has been posted here, ime women in a very general sense do soooo much more than men and are constantly juggling a million things in their head - the mental load concept.

I think much of it is ingrained expectations of gender roles. When married, if we came in as a family after a day out, OH would automatically head for the kitchen and make himself a drink. Every time. I'd have to ask him to give the kids a drink. Every time. He's a smart man. Wtf?

I've found I can work (p/t) care for two days, run the house, have some fun. I'm less resentful of having to nag him to do the 10%.

For us yes, we've definitely grown apart. But most couples I know are hanging in there fairly well

For two dcs!

Offred I live alone, so if you're worried my motivation is that I have a DW chained to the stove, fear not. I am not questioning your motivation, although I could.
There is one bloke I know who does behave like this actually, but he has been a standing joke amongst his mates for years and his wife has already spoken to a divorce lawyer. She will give him the shove eventually and the kids will take her side. You can run but you can't hide.

No, I think your motivation is to avoid having to be responsible for the ways in which you have/do hold/benefit from/perpetuate these views...

I suspect you do hold/benefit from/perpetuate these views because you keep trying to minimise and challenge the existence of the problem.

Dogfish you are single handedly proving what so many women are saying here about men refusing to acknowledge systemic privilege. It's great that you're a nice guy and your friends are nice guys, but that has absolutely no bearing on the points women here are making.

I haven't said any of us are nice guys, only that we wouldn't get away with being oppressive, at least not for long. Others bring their personal experiences to this thread. Nothing wrong with me bringing mine, and I'm not saying it's universal.

I cannot "single handedly prove" anything about a whole lot of different men. Maybe the problem with "systemic privilege" is that in my experience the system is not all that systematic. Some women marry sexist pigs. Others don't.

Yeah, that’s the whole point...

Your attitude is men have to be prevented from getting away with it (by women), it is a woman’s choice to marry a sexist pig, you and all your friends are not like that, if there is one it’s ok cos his wife will divorce him one day and his mates tease him about it... and in any case where it does happen it’s between man and wife and not a systemic issue...

We don’t really need anecdotal evidence on this issue... there is a wealth of research on it...

It’s annoying when men do what you have on this thread because it a. Feels like an attempt to deny the existence of a system of female oppression b. Confirms there is a problem and c. Comes across as ‘hey ladies the man is here to tell you you don’t need to worry about this’

Looking at some figures, ONS data published for Jun-Aug 2017:

Men in full-time work: 14.7m
Men in part-time work: 2.2m of which...
Men who did not want full-time work: 1.2m
Male employment rate: 79.6%

Women in full-time work: 8.8m
Women in part-time work: 6.3m of which...
Women who did not want full-time work: 4.8m
Female employment rate: 70.7%

The percentage of men who don't work (for various reasons e.g. students, disability, illness, through choice, unable to find work) is just over 20%, for women the figure is a little under 30% - that's a 9% discrepancy. The percentage of working-age men who are in part-time work by choice is about 5.5%, but for women it's around 22.5%.

The ratio of women in full-time work to men in full-time work is 3:5.

In other words, a much smaller number of men have given up full-time work to care for either / both children and adults.

Dogfish - you seem to think that women can just put their foot down and opt out of oppression by means of a little assertiveness. That's not how it works. There have been many studies that find that women spend a huge amount of their time and energy trying to assert themselves and insist on equality but that they are generally met with resistance from men, who are happy with the status quo and have no intention of changing in any significant way. Until the point at which the women decide to leave (often after the kids have left home so as not to harm their primary and secondary education), women will put on a happy face when out with their partners because that is what female socialisation teaches us to do. You may think you are seeing happiness and contentedness but in many cases it's nothing of the sort.

1% of men? What a ludicrous ‘guess’. Ask any woman with any kind of social media presence whether she’s been abused online by a man. That 1% must be incredibly busy.

what about people who have experienced both sides like transgenders:

And women are working round the clock to keep their households clean and in order and work at work......

As long as this is the answer the divide will remain. We are becoming more dysfunctional as a society with so called equality not closing the gap.

Men and women are not equal we are supposed to work as a team respecting each other's strengths and supporting each other's weaknesses.

Women want to be like men financially independent and achieving in the workplace. Yet when kids come along women have to pick this up too and thus create a rod for their own back.

Men are being squeezed out of their role - traditionally the provider this is no longer the case. With women raising boys single handedly they have no role model - they see the mother doing it all - as she probably has no choice - fathers post divorce are resentful of the women - they do not respect their former wives and this confuses the next generation. Their surprised feelings cause all this anger and resentment that is currently coming out in abusive relationships. How many of these men were raised by doting mothers?

Maybe the answer is more equality but not just in the workplace but in the home too - raising kids single handedly is full on but maybe it is down to the mothers getting their sons doing more and this has to include the mundane and boring but necessary jobs.

Men still need contact - look at the increase in cycling clubs - and I am seeing more and more groups of men in coffee shops during the day albeit head to toe in Lycra!

we need to teach boys that having feelings and expressing emotions is not weak - this is the reason why there are so many depressed men - and we only see the ones where it is obvious - a lot will masking their feelings if they have even registered them. (@Offred I agree with a lot you are saying)

Women have been hurt and are choosing to live a single life rather than risk being hurt all over again - most of them were doing it all in the marriage anyway -they justify that their lives are happy but intimacy is a basic human need - it is all based on fear and lack of trust- but what does this teach our daughters - that men cannot be trusted - that we need to be self reliant - we don't need to come together to breed either now.

There is a huge increase in teen girl's mental health issues - is this due to the lack of a parental male role model to base their future relationships on.

Until men and women learn to communicate, to respect each other regardless of what role they are doing and see that we are a team, not competing individuals to see who has it better then we will continue getting further and further apart.

Screens just accentuate this as does society currently by the lack of effective systems in place and the conflicting messages that we are having to deal with.

We each have to take responsibility ourselves - men and women - for the next generation and try to not pass on our biased fears - but so many of us are just caught up in the day to day battle of life that to look at the wider picture never mind try and implement changes takes huge energy

I definitely feel this. Dont know if its because im getting older or because theres a real gap.opening up as women have become more capable and independent in the workplace etc I think its highlighted the differences in approach for sure and shone a lught in hiw many men were coasting and relying on their priveledged position for so long.

This has been a great thread. The older I get (50), the more I feel this. As a PP said above, I literally don't know a single couple where the woman isn't doing substantially more planning/emotional work than the man, and that includes couples where both parties are in high powered jobs (London based).

I do see couples where school pickups and food preparation are shared somewhat, but I always say to someone (man) who says they do equal share around the house with respect to the children, can you answer the following questions?

1. When is your child's next dentist appointment? Did you make the appointment?
2. What is your school outfitter's name? When is last time you noticed your child needed new uniform and sourced it for him/her?
3. What is your child's shoe size?
4. Did you and your wife buy an equal number of gifts for your children/parents/siblings/etc for Christmas?

I don't know ONE SINGLE MAN who could answer all these in a way that showed he did them more than (or in an equal amount to) his wife. Not one.

I know some men who could answer those. They are men whose marriages ended because of unequal burden who have since the split taken on more or men who always did have an equal attitude and whose relationships are happy and stable.

I think that’s key really. The longevity of a marriage is directly related to the man’s attitude to equality (obviously). Some men shape up re the kids on divorce, some get proprietorial about owning the children, some become bitter and self pitying about women... but in reality the way to keep a marriage for men is to be an equal partner... there is no getting around that and if you are a man who won’t, given more and more women are expecting equality, you are choosing loneliness and misery.

Having read the full thread it appears that it is not just a divide between genders but also in each gender - do we ever think what did the previous generation get right or do we just assume it was all wrong.

Some of the comments on here I find hard to get my head around - I can't quite gage whether they are selfish ignorant or just a really sad reflection of where we are as a society

. Take them out of the equation and things look brighter. ( re children) and what is the point of life to be materialistically fulfilled!

Parenthood become a state run thing - what like China?

Men bore me - their constant privilege bores the shutout of me! Who has raised them? It's certainly not other men from what's said on here.

If they have been conditioned during their most formative years and this has then being reinforced throughout their life how can we expect anything more?

Some perhaps are feeling this in their depression but whether they have the courage to change is unlikely whilst women are saying " fuck them all"

Clearly not doing my share of mental load as was under the impression that my school outfitter's was Tesco.

To a certain extent I agree @greenberet I find some of those comments sad too.

But equally I think that the way men seem to be learning is by not managing successful relationships with women, as I said the ones who have been left for their selfish behaviour and responded by being better parents and better partners.

I also don’t really think it is up to women to be nice or feel nice to men in order for them to do better (as a class), though I do think bell hooks is right in ‘the will to change’ in that retreating into an enclave of women and hating on all men is toxic and unproductive.

don'tknow

I only know one man who could answer those questions and that's because he has a truly equal marriage where they both work, and study and have hobbies and parent three dcs. They are pretty unusual!

I agree I don't want this to become a women hate men scenario. However the fact remains that women Do more in 95% of cases!

in reality the way to keep a marriage for men is to be an equal partner... there is no getting around that and if you are a man who won’t, given more and more women are expecting equality, you are choosing loneliness and misery

I agree with this.

Some men seem to still want the traditional relationship where the woman provides all his needs, but when women are working full time and doing the childcare and doing the housework what the fuck would be the point of a husband like that? He would just be another person to look after for no significant benefit other than a bit of probably mediocre sex.

However, an equal partnership has significant benefits for the whole family.

It's no big surprise that women want men who are prepared to get off their arse and contribute, not lazy fuckers who want to sit back and be waited on hand and foot