Are men and women growing apart generally?

[Lifeisntbad]

Just had a chat with a friend about this. My male and female acquaintances sometimes (with some exceptions) seem so different in outlook that I wonder about this. Obviously they are different from each other as well.
In my immediate circle of 40 /50 somethings the women are generally resourceful independent sociable and open. Many (not all) of the men are depressed, with no enthusiasm, slightly isolated and in some cases a little bitter.
While in one way gender differences seem to be blurring which can only be a good thing, in other ways men and women seem increasingly on different paths, coming together perhaps for having children and then diverging again.

Pretty much like all the reporting on fMRI studies on the supposedly ‘gendered’ brain, which BTW was an assumption long before we had any ability at all to study the brain in any kind of detail.

It has to be more than socialisation - there has to be something in women that gives them this instinct - maybe it is hormonal and wanes with menopause - maybe that's why so many divorces happen as kids got older .

I was a career woman until I had kids - wouldn't even describe myself as maternal - but for me it all changed when kids came along - no one else was going to look after my kids - this is my job, role whatever you want to call it. I couldn't give a shit about competing in the workplace and proving that I am equal to any man - maybe we have got this wrong - we say men don't want the child rearing because they are not stupid enough to take on the shit but maybe the bottom line is they just cannot do it - not as well as women anyway - they know this but how many of them admit to it and respect this - not many

And when they are being allowed to get away with it by the system they have no need to face up to their responsibility. The system does not support families why would it when the current situation gets 2 people out working instead of one.

But it makes out it does - because they can't really tell us the truth now can they! That we want you all out working, we don't really give a stuff about the children for now just get as much money in our hands as possible and we'll deal with the consequences if we have too

Why are there so many children with mental health issues?

But there’s no evidence that men just don’t have that instinct or that women just do.

I certainly don’t have it. Plenty of women don’t. I’m a great parent but I never wanted kids, was not happy to have them, only do it because I don’t have a choice now they are here. Whilst I love them and enjoy them I deeply resent on one level that this is my life.

Offred - but you do have that instinct - you want to be a great parent without that instinct you would not do it - you would do the bare minimum you could get away with. But the love you have for your kids drives you to do a good job even though this was not what you wanted

It is the system that has let you down - the system that does not give credit to being a mum and all that it entails - instead of supporting you and making it easy it makes it as difficult for you as possible by not enforcing fathers to pay up, by fuelling ideas that it is not a worthy role, and somehow enforcing the attitude that most men seem to be developing that they can get away with doing bugger all.

I have a Dd & a Ds - I want them both to be happy - I can't say to Dd go it alone don't rely on a man be completely self sufficient and then say to Ds be respectful of women etc etc.

The system wants us to be dysfunctional the more we fight amongst ourselves the less time we have to see what is really going on in the world

It’s my sense of responsibility. It’s nothing to do with being maternal or having an instinct. It’s because I am a responsible person.

I don’t tell my daughters to stay away from men either

I’ve taught all my kids about sexism (and all equalities issues) from very young.

I don't see any evidence of men and women in the social circle that I am in growing apart. That said, I do think that roles are definitely being reevaluated and teamwork is not seen as some kind of 'wow what a super chap for helping out with the housework and looking after his own children!' but as what it should be, which is doing your fair share. In my situation, I am a SAHD and although I am still somewhat of a rarity in that position, I would not be surprised to see more and more in the future. I think that there are some people out there who are happy to be single and celibate and there will always be plenty who want to commit to a life together with someone.

“so for women it is instinctive but men need to make it a conscious choice”

Sounds like an excuse to me

“Career woman”

Is there such a thing as a “career man”, do you think? If not, why not?

My dh is wonderful, there are no power struggles we are just equal. He supports me, cooks, cleans, does laundry etc I never have to ask or remind him, he takes care of all the bill paperwork and most life admin. Threads like this make me feel very lucky.
But there’s the rub I shouldn’t feel lucky, it should just be normal.
My family treat me like I’m some sort of feminist dragon that forces dh to do all this, but in reality I’ve never once had to even think about asking him to do anything, he does it because he is good and kind. I often feel guilty that he does so much (50% ) like I am failing as a wife, even though I also work full time, because the socialisation is so strong that this stuff is my responsibility (plus must look amazing and be educated and high earning).

green

This was me too, I had a thriving business and no intention of having children of my own, life was for living and you couldn't do that with kids.
It really wasn't in the equation at all.
My dh was the same and the industry was not conducive to both parents continuing without nannies, and when we had ds1 it all changed.
Your sentiments were mine almost to a quote
It was my job, and something, I don't know what, a feeling that no way would I go back to work.
Dh was "modern man" the magazine term back then."
Men were hands on but not like today, more was expected of "mum" but mums I know were quite happy to fill that role.
I thought/think my dh is a fantastic husband and father, but maybe young women today wouldn't agree with me.
For me it's still about choice whether that be societal expectations, your partners, government policies etc.
If choice is taken away from either partner it ruins the relationship.
Women are choosing their paths more these days, but personally I don't think having it all was a good mantra for women.
Those who didn't want it were being told they were letting the side down. Those who did, were unnatural because they weren't happy to be one or the other.
Some men are not cut out to be equal with caring for their children, it doesn't make them bad parents, they can be good in many ways.
But if you want a partner who is interested and they aren't well it's not their fault.

My family treat me like I’m some sort of feminist dragon that forces dh to do all this,

I think this is so relevant, just as is Offred’s description of the social sanctions she faced when leaving a lazy husband.

We’re expected to be grateful if our husbands do half of what we do and are seen as bitches if we demand it of them.

Peoples expectations of men are so low when it comes to childcare and housework and it affects how much inequality we are prepared to put up with.

Well I don’t think there are many adults who actually are ‘not cut out for’ being a parent. There are a few who should not have children. Some who feel it is their purpose in life. Probably most are capable of doing a good job if they bother to make the effort to.

But there is a massive stigma re women who just don’t have a ‘maternal instinct’ or who find that they struggle with parenting...

Because parenting doesn’t really require extraordinary skills, what it requires is responsibility and commitment.

Yy I think people’s expectations of men are too low full stop.

ime a divorced husband who actually pays maintenance and picks kids up for eow is considered to be worthy of praise even if that is all they do. single mums on the other hand are the subject of stigma. single dads (if the mum has left, rare ime) are revered. Attitudes like this are so ingrained that they are not noticed. Men get away with doing very little in some cases, with no consequences.

I can remember adds, magazine articles of the 90's depicting scenes of "modern Man" changing nappies, washing up, taking kids out at weekend, family time on sunday, a bit like 1950's.
Men were generally looked up to if they were "good at home"
My dh knew exactly what was expected of him as he read the magazines and books with me, and shared my baby Diary thing.
There was no internet, birth tv programmes, we just talked and listened to each other.
Society expects more from men now.

Women by and large expect more from men I would say.

Society generally not so much. A man can still just walk away and live a life pretty much free from social sanctions if he chooses to. It has got harder to enforce maintenance too since the change to CMO...

This thread has been so interesting to read - thank you! Like others I think a key to the problems we see between the sexes is the childcare arrangements. We have a role reversal in our home and it makes an enormous difference on so many levels. My dh carries around 50% of the mental load, 60% of the childcare and 90% of the drudgery. If he went out to work I would carry far more than those percentages. Our marriage would have struggled tbh. He has developed a much greater level of emotional maturity and responsibility than he had before. Despite my socialisation I have to force myself to help him clear away dishes etc in the evening because he has assumed that role and doesn't resent me for sitting still and letting him serve me. We are both much much better off for having done this and our children are too. But outside the home we all still see massive problems in the socialisation of boys and girls. I had 2 dds and then a gap and then a ds. I can't tell you how many people have told me to expect my ds to be aggressive , lazy and destructive compared with my dds. They are hell bent on getting me to acknowledge how naturally different boys and girls are. The absolute fact is that they are not. My ds is 2 and is very sweet and gentle because I expect him to be. I won't tolerate him knocking other people's blocks over or forgetting his manners or refusing to tidy up and neither will my dh. But that is not what I'm seeing elsewhere. If I can battle against others low expectations of him then I am confident he will be far happier and connected to others as a result.

So it's not so much that it's getting worse from my perspective but it just isn't getting any better and I can't understand why not. Why can't people see it?!

All this talk of men and women growing further apart and disharmony between the sexes ...

.. it kind of assumes that there was a time when men and women lived harmoniously together. Maybe our interests have always been divergent.

I don't think our interests are essentially divergent though. I think if we could raise boys differently we would see the male suicide rate come down, happier marriages and women treated fairly. But it would take a concerred effort across a society. It's not something we parents can do in isolation.

*Concerted

If you believe in the pendulum swing theory of history, then maybe what we're seeing and experiencing is a massive swing away from a centuries old patriarchal model...which arguably began on a cumulative scale around the time of the First World War with the suffragettes and reached a semblance of maturity with the Equal Opportunities/ Equal Pay Acts of the 70's.
Steps forward undoubtedly but hardly great strides in the grand scheme of things.
We're not there yet, nowhere near in many respects. But just maybe that pendulum is still swinging in the right direction and by the time our daughters daughters are entering the adult world, their needs, life chances and aspirations will have just as much importance in society as their brothers.

I don’t think it assumes men and women were harmonious so much as it says the social contract (in the form of man as provider woman as servant) was more accepted by women in the past (because patriarchy was stronger) than it is now.

Now more and more women are expecting equality. We are not at a point yet where men are, on the whole, willing to accommodate that and so there is more upheaval.

Pallasathena - this is also supported by the spiritual world where there is a huge shift going on away from the patriarchal model of human ego which supports separation, greed, competition, power to one of maternal dominance which leads by connecting our hearts and inner knowing which means our perception, priorities, beliefs, and understandings about our world all change as we are no longer look at things through our social conditioning and learned behaviours.

What do you mean when you say ‘the spiritual world’?

Also all that fluff about maternal dominance and leading with our hearts is just sexism...