sick and tired of being resented by family.

[twoandahalftimesthree]

As long as I can remember I've always kept my feelings to myself, it's caused me a lot of issues over the years with almost every kind of relationship. A while back I realised I had repeatedly put myself in a position to be emotionally abused many, many times and set out on a long journey of exploration to find out why and break those habits of behaviour that make me vulnerable to all the manipulative users out there that are happy to take advantage.

I had traced it back to my older brother grooming me to be quiet and not 'bother' my parents with anything. He would tell me I was selfish if I ever asked for anything or was demanding in the slightest. Of course I believed him. He on the other hand has always been very demanding of my parents time, attention and money.

Anyway, fast forward a few years and my mum started a business in an old building they owned. I helped out enormously in the early days but then I went to university. I still helped out in all my holidays but at the end of the three years the business was just hobbling along, both my parents were working very long hours and my mum was suffering from depression. So, I helped out again, in fact I worked ridiculous hours. Often seven days a week and soon it started to turn around. I stayed living at home even though I could easily have got myself a very decent graduate job (my brother went off and did his own thing, never had even the slightest interest in the business, or helping out our parents). I worked hard to pay off the business overdraft (£10,000) and took no salary during this time.

My mum was still depressed at this stage and my dad suggested that I took over the business formally and pay them rent. As they had actually been making a loss when they were running the business themselves this was an infinitely better deal for them and of course I had invested a huge amount of energy into the business by that time and felt a degree of ownership anyway. It seemed like a fair arrangement at the time and nobody raised any issue with it.

So, over the years I have continued with the business and it's grown enormously. It's been successful, I'm not a millionaire by any means and 15 years from taking over I still work hard but I have a nice lifestyle and employ a number of people. It still pays a good market rent (our accountant recently had this verified so I am assured this is a fair deal) for the property and my parents live very comfortably off this.

However, recently it has become clear that both my brother and my mum do have some issues with this arrangement in retrospect.

Twice in front of people neither of us knew well, my mum made sly comments that made it sound like I had pushed her out of the business and taken advantage. She said that she was 'absolutely livid' about it. Both times I felt I had absolutely no right of reply as to pick her up on it would have only brought more attention to the comment and with it being in public it felt even more inappropriate, like washing our dirty linen in public.

However, I was absolutely livid (!) about that myself, it seemed to me totally and utterly unfair representation of events and was done in a situation where she knew I would have no right of reply.

It's clear my brother feels disgruntled about it too and over the years has treated me very badly (although I didn't know at the time this issue was at the heart of it). I have always acted in a kind of apologetic way towards him (he trained me that way) and of course he's taken full advantage of this.

I know that neither of them had an issue with it at the time as they didn't think id make a success of it, that I'd ever 'outshine' them. I've been trained to be a light under the bushel kind of a girl after all so I always play down my business (and every other kind of) success anyway. Even so, it clearly irks them both.

On occasion I have brought up this issue with my brother but he has learnt well from my mum that the only way to deal with any sort of challenge from me is to get highly emotional and keep ramping it up until i back down. So we get nowhere.

I am sick of being ashamed of myself for this (and for just having feelings) I don't believe I did anything wrong, and even if I had, I don't believe I should be punished for the rest of my life. I am sick of not saying how I feel.

Your parents would rent to someone else or they would sell. They would still have money.

Your mum doesn't sound like someone who responds to rational argument so you are just setting yourself up for failure trying to convince her that your narrative for the business is true and hers is false. Especially as your narrative has her being shit at running the business and her taking advantage of you massively. What's the chance she's going to say oh yes, that's how it was, I was wrong?

I think you should explore that strong emotional response to moving. Think it through. Work it out. I suspect it will reveal all sorts of deep beliefs that you have no choice but to be their slave and whipping boy, which you can then dismantle.

You should be trying to keep your children far away from your dysfunctional parents and brother but you are keeping them close.

The meetings are structured and you don't have to speak, it's up to you. You can sit there for a year and not say a word if you like - though tbf you'll hear stories that are just as bad/not as bad/worse than yours. Not that people tell their full stories, just bits and pieces - usually what's going on that week.

I was also going to say they could rent to someone else or sell.

Your parents that is.

Having just read your whole thread I totally agree that you should thoroughly investigate moving your business. As pps have pointed out it's almost certain you'll have to move eventually so you may as well plan and do it on your terms, not your parents' or your brother's terms, possibly at an inconvenient time.

It should beggar belief that your family have both painted you as a villain and yet rely upon you for their income. Unfortunately it doesn't. If they can't survive without your rent they should be treating you with respect! Instead they want you to stay put and pay up whilst either not knowing or caring whether your own future is stable? And then you're to look after them in their old age? Selfish doesn't even begin to cover it.

Relocate your business, separate your family from your livelihood. It is not your job to provide them with a whipping boy. Nor should you prioritise them over your own DH and DCs. They aren't looking after your future so you need to.

Ime getting psychologically free was a loooong process. You have to factor in we've been brainwashed from the year dot to be the whipping boy /Cinderella. It's really hard to come against that bcs of FOG - fear, obligation and guilt.

Look it up Op xx

I'm another one who thinks you are heading down a (potentially quite damaging for your own MH) dead end in thinking there is any conversation(s) which will make your mum or brother see things from your point of view. This kind of family dynamic is hugely complex and I don't claim to be anywhere near as knowledgable as some PP's but it seems to me that the key is to accept that the flaws are with them rather than you, that nothing you do will make them change and that strengthening your own boundaries and self esteem is a much better way forward than attempting any kind of conflict resolution with them.

That's what I would be focusing on, my own (separate from them) life and family, my own personal and professional growth and my own mental and emotional wellbeing. Therapy is your friend, you do need to explore and understand the dynamics of your relationship with your mum and brother but purely for your own progression, not with a view to them seeing things from your perspective because the only way that would happen is if they embarked on the same kind of personal journey through therapy that you are currently on. They won't, because they don't have the same self awareness and emotional intelligence you do and there is no incentive for them to do so because they're not the ones living with the damage their behaviour has caused/is causing.

You've made a success of your life despite their constant scapegoating of you and that shows huge strength on your part, I think it's time to use some of that strength to throw off the role they've assigned you (and the associated guilt) and build boundaries which no longer allow them to treat you so unfairly. The mantra used by loved ones of people with addictions applies equally well to your family's behaviour, you didn't cause this, you can't cure it and you can't control it, but you can protect yourself from it.

Thanks everyone, it says something that I feel guilty cos I feel like you are all wasting your time reading my posts and I should just shut up and get on with things by myself!
As far as moving the business goes I'm trying To avoid outing myself so I'll just say that the location of the business currently gives us a market advantage and it would be a significant cost and risk to move it. On the positive side I am busy developing another arm of the business which is entirely independent of location so I do have that as a fall back.
I'm thinking however that the emotional response to the idea of moving the business comes from my childhood.
I remember from an early age thinking my parents were irresponsible, they compulsively spent money they couldn't afford on things they didn't need and I was always worrying about that. They were constantly engaged on mad projects that took up a lot of time and energy which, certainly to me, didn't seem to give much of a return on investment. My dad also used to tell us that our house was haunted so I was terrified to go to bed and woke screaming from nightmares almost every night. So, although I did always feel that I was loved by both my parents I wasn't protected at all if you see what I mean.

I also used to really worry about us having to move house, I thought that was a money worry but I'm now thinking it may have been more about desperately needing stability. Our home being the only thing I could depend upon iyswim, it was unlikely to do anything unpredictable! As a child I felt the prospect of moving house would be devastating, I used to repeatedly dream that we had moved and it all seemed ok then suddenly I would remember that we had left our 'real home' and could never go back and I'd wake crying.
So I think maybe I have transferred some of the attachment I should have had to my parents onto the house. Is that a possibly a thing?
Perhaps I have always been motivated to do whatever I could to facilitate my parents having a stable life as that is what I wanted as a child. The money I pay as rent should make them stable and comfortable but they still make silly decisions and still spend far too much money on things they don't need. And it still really stresses me out!

The fact that, while I was at university, they got themselves into a massive financial and emotional mess demonstrated to me that they couldn't manage on their own and I was the only responsible one in the family able to make mature, considered decisions.

Reading your posts is a waste of no one's time OP, you deserve support as much as anyone else posting here.

I don't know if transferring attachment to the house is a 'thing' but I'd say it's quite possible, it certainly doesn't sound as though your parents provided much stability or security for you growing up. You've almost assumed a parental role now from the sound of it but you are not responsible for their financial security or the stability (or otherwise) of their lives. It's understandable that you would have tried so hard to maintain that stability as a child but would it actually have a huge impact on your life now if you let go of the reins and left them to sort themselves out?

I would work on that in therapy, letting go of that weight of responsibility for them in your own mind is probably a good next step. You can make decisions about the business at a later time but I do think making your business independent of them (whether that means moving or just pushing forward with the new 'arm' you mentioned) should probably be your eventual aim.

You can't turn your parents into stable people.

You've got some very codependent thinking going on.

Here's the normal non-codependent person version of your last post:

They would have found a way out of that financial and emotional turmoil themselves if they had had to. You stopped them from learning the lesson. They learned the lesson that they can do whatever stupid shit they want and you will bail them out no matter what the cost to yourself.

I stopped giving my mother money years ago because she wasted it on shit I really disapproved of. It stressed me out a lot. I realised that I had two choices: (1) ignore what she spent it on including the constant pressure for more, or, (2) stop giving her any money. After the first failed I went for the second.

www.codependencynomore.com/codependency-quiz-2/

Just a thought - if the business is quite reliant on staying where you are, could you buy the building it functions from? Then nobody would have a say in the business, your parents would have a cash injection, and it would end the implication that they have helped you out. Your bro would have to keep his grubby little mitts off too.

Thank you! I am totally co-dependent! (I'm certain I shouldn't be pleased about this but identifying an issue is a big step forward)
My needs have been so neglected I have no idea what they might be.
I have no idea what I want out of life, no idea what I want to do with my time, no idea what I want to watch on tv, no idea what music I like, no idea what I want to eat for my dinner. Someone else in my life always makes those decisions. If anyone asks me what I want for my Birthday I always say peace and quiet cos my life is just full of other peoples demands.

There are lots and lots of resources and therapists who can help you with codependency.

The weight that lifts from your shoulders as you control the codependent traits is amazing.

I think of it like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. It's a hell of a battle to break out but when you do you soar.

Sounds like you're finding 'the scales are falling' and are amazed by the new truths you're realizing... such scary yet liberating insights about the life you thought you had known.

However your parents and brother are highly unlikely to have the same reaction. At a really basic level, what's in it for them? And on the other hand, how do they benefit from keeping the status quo unchanged and unchanging forever?

To you, these new perspectives are healthy and helpful and rock your world ultimately for the better.

For them, these will be unwelcome light shone bright into their selfish and nasty behaviour. It will challenge their way of life, history, family dynamics and self identity.

Basically, you won't win against that. These are such huge reasons to deny deny deny what they've done to you. And it will be seen as 'what they've done to you', an accusation, apportioning of blame, no matter how you come to see it.

You may well see some of it almost as an act of God, or a 'this is just what happened'... but I'm afraid it will cut very deep to them. And tbh, so it should.

They will know, deep down, what they did to you. They know how unfair and how nasty their selfish motives really were. All those times they could have turned from that path, all the times they could have chosen to be silent, or to step up and put you before themselves... and they did not. For you, it's just how your life was, but for them, they chose it. They wanted it, they did it to you.

If you're relying on sharing your newfound insights and getting some kind of resolution, I'm afraid you'll be upset and disappointed.

If you want to find your own resolution and closure by talking to them, that's different and may help you lots if it's what you need to heal.

But please don't rely on them ever acknowledging the right of it all, no matter how logical or rational you are being.

It's a difficult time I think, when you have seen the truth and all you want to do it share it and get it out there to those who were the 'truth makers' of your world growing up. It's hard to realise that you may well be the only one in your family to 'know' the truth.

For me, that was the last tie that bound me. And my mother cut that tie, against my hopes and willingness, by her words and actions when she was faced with 'the truth' that she twisted and turned and played every nasty dirty trick in the book, with no hesitation or thought for the consequences, just to keep her own reality the way she chose it to be.

I had this wave of repugnance wash over me as she swore black was white and dug deep into the cruelest types of emotional blackmail and damage she could do to me. Anything and everything was fair game. The hurt she inflicted on me didn't matter to her a jot.

And it's just struck me... isn't that description a bit familiar??? Like when you tried to talk to your mother about her 'livid' comment...

You can't change them but you can change the way you respond to them. So stop choosing to get ramped up emotionally and choose not to be manipulated. You know how he does it. You are completely aware. You've sussed him. Choose to respond differently.

Also talk to your mum and
Dad about how you were asked to step up while you're mum was depressed. Infact next time they pass comment in publuc factually explain what was going on at the time.

Looking back I can see I adopted a parental role when I was very young. I can certainly remember being dismayed by their disregard for the consequences of their actions before I started school.
I put myself into the parental role of emotional coach and the voice of reason to them years and years ago. The voice of reason doesn't have any needs but only because it's supposed to be a voice inside your own head.

I think/hope I might be able to have a useful conversation about how I came to be running the business. With my dad to back me up I think we could clarify the actual facts rather than my mum's mis-remembered version. I don't think it would r worth going any deeper into the issues than that but I think it would be very useful to demonstrate I'm not going to take that kind of shit any longer. I need to do it soon.

In my experience the big conversations are a disaster.

I have a series of soundbite style statements I make when incorrect statements are made about me and the past. They are knee jerk to me now. They require no response from anyone else, certainly not a question or an accusation. Always said with an eye roll and sometimes a tinkly laugh. It works. Partly because it uses one of an abusers tactics right back at them: if they challenge such a little statement they look petty and I just raise my eyebrows and change the subject / walk off.

You could create a few for yourself:

"Every scrap of my wages went into the business for x years, seriously, I didn't take a single penny of payment for x years. I let it all be invested immediately in the business. It was so hard, DH was a saint not complaining about me not taking wages."

"Another get rich quick scheme, eh mum? ha ha"

"It took a lot of hard work to make the business profitable again."

"I agreed to take on the business and its debts even though it was loss making. Mum and Dad were on the verge of losing their home. It's lucky I've got a head for business"

"I have worked so hard to turn that business around. It took me x years just to pay off the debts they'd run up!"

"DH and I sacrificed an awful lot when we took on the business. Well, we'd already sacrificed a huge amount even before I agreed to attempt a rescue. It's great to see all that risk and sacrifice paying off now."

"I am ever so grateful that mum and dad realised I have a good head for business and pushed me to take over their business to stop it going bust."

"Obviously mum and dad were very lucky that I was willing to take on the business and its debts. I doubt they'd have been able to find any other buyer."

"It does make me feel good that they didn't lose their house. Of course it was a big risk for me to take on their debts but after a lot of sacrifice and hard work it has really worked out."

"I would have loved to buy the property too but I couldn't afford it what with taking on the business debts and there not even being enough profit for me to take wages!"

"I will never ask you to repay the debts I took on for you. I will never ask you to pay me all the back wages you couldn't afford pay. I will continue to pay you rent. I don't want to see you ruined. I am prepared to write it off."

Genius, RunRabbit!

Great posts here. We're all piling in bcs this has been our journey too op. We've had to do, and are still doing to various degrees, the houdini act of excavating ourselves from the toxic family ties that bound us up so bad!

Have a look at CoDA. Go along to the groups (again, you don't have to speak if you don't want to). It certainly stood me in good stead for a few years. Codependency is a very common response to toxic family dynamics.

I'm quite excited for you, two

I'd be wary about most topics of conversation to be honest!

My 'big conversation' that ended up cutting that last tie wasn't actually even meant to be a big 'moment of truth' type of conversation!

I tapped into something by mistake and thought she'd just misremembered so said so, and all hell erupted! Well, actually the whole thing could have been smoothed over if I'd backed down and got back into my box like the daughter I'd been trained to be.

The issue was I was starting to push back on that and stand up for myself a bit more, keep up my boundaries etc, so didn't play the party line.

What I thought was something quite neutral and not a big deal turned out to be the definitive moment of my relationship with my family. I was shocked that basic facts didn't dent the certainty at all, and she tied herself up in knots to refute everything I pointed out about why it couldn't have happened like that... this is an extremely smart woman who has spent a life time seeing the holes in other people's arguments.

In the end she downright lied and added a heart rending back story to 'prove' she was right, and give herself to liscence to be incredibly nasty to someone*.

She crossed a line when she fabricated a terrible incident that did NOT happen at my dear sisters funeral in order to 'win'. I know it didn't happen as firstly, it was supposed to have happened when I was standing next to my mother, and secondly, in order for those words to have been said, time travel needed to have been invented. Her fabrication depended on health details about me that where only discovered 6 yrs after my sisters death.

So, my 'dear' mother used both my sisters death and my own serious health diagnosis as mere props in a lie to get her own way. Kind of brought into sharp relief what her priorities really are.

• that 'someone' is a close family friend, someone who has been absolutely amazing and always there for us and has done extraordinary acts of kindness and generosity with no strings or expectation of anything in return, not even praise.

Rabid jealousy was the motivation I guess. I had no idea that a 'neutral' conversation topic, and me trying to change the habit of a lifetime being the nodding dog of the family, well, no idea that would turn out to be such a pivotal 'final scales falling from eyes' moment.

Hmmmm, I know a conversation is risky. My therapist thinks I should talk to mum and that it will be ok as long as my dad is there because he will back up my version of events. I'm certain that he would. I do feel like I have the upper hand after our last convo, if I leave it much longer then she will 'forget' all about it.

Have you cleared with your dad that he will back you up?

Your father has consistently stood by and let other people abuse you. I wouldn't pin too much hope on him suddenly caring enough to protect you.

Has he ever sided with you over your brother and mother in a way that materially puts them at a disadvantage and you in the superior position. Looking objectively.

In any case, you obviously feel it is important to have the conversation. So I suggest you plan your exits carefully in advance. Know the circumstances under which you will end the conversation (for good reason or bad) and how you will physically end the conversation and leave the premises. I would also make a list of objectives for the conversation. Be clear on what you want to get out of it.

I'd be inclined to have some that don't depend on a good outcome, more about discovery: "explain my perception of what happened during X" and "discover whether mum can accept that as the truth" "get them to agree to sell the property to me"