Other experiences of cheating/affairs please?

[Pinkyponk36]

Hello everybody, I have already posted about my situation before here so won't go into detail. And all the replies I received were basically saying the same thing: you've let your partner treat you like a mug, he is blatantly cheating, you should leave. (No one stood up for him).

To explain very briefly: been together 5 years, have had two kids over last 4 years of that, have always had gut instinct he's at the very least a flirt behind my back & big porn user, but have found out a bit of evidence here and there to back up theory but nothing 100% incriminating (I.e. That he has defo done sex chat and/physical cheating). At very start of relationship he admitted he had had girl in his hotel room, but nothing happened. Still maintains this but has been caught flirting with her over past few years and trying to arrange lunch with her (which he says never actually happened) and then other such bits of info come out in drips and drabs. I've said to him he must sort out counselling over next two weeks or I'm calling mediator to sort out break up and dividing our assets.

Basically please could other people who have been in similar situation give me a heads up of how liars operate? And how they found out the truth? Do people always find the smoking gun straight away, or does it come out slowly?

It's just he is so definite that nothing physical has happened, but he is letting some bits of truth out here and there, and when we talk he is so good at making me feel like he does love me, and that he is essentially a good person. And then I feel very confused and wonder if most of the problem is me, and he is just a bit of a stupid dick at times....

I just can't believe that he is lying through his teeth?? I need to hear about how others who have experienced people who have lied through their teeth, about how they actually finally discovered they were being properly lied to??

Like, am I a complete mug? Or am I an overreacting, insecure person?

Just to be clear, I don't really mind him using porn. What bothers me is that he has done emotional cheating, flirting where he has chased Nd pursued others, and I suspect he has done sex chatting, and I suspect he did have sex with girl in hotel room and that they have been sporadically engaging in some type of seeing each other/flirting/kissing etc over past few years. He has joined swinging sites too.

Sorry I'm so long winded.... I just want to know the most common way that truth comes out and how you actually spot that you are being majorly lied to.

first they deny, then deny again and again and again.

if pressed, eventually they will admit to the odd thing here and there

Your instincts are telling you that he's lying, and the evidence you have is that he is.

What WOULD be your red line?
Flirting?
pursuing others
contacting said girl when you have already said it's not acceptable to you?
kissing said girl?
Having said girl in his room?
Swinging sites?

ANY of the above are enough

What do YOU want to do? What do you need to be happy?

If it's him being monogamous, being honest and trustworthy, that ship has well and truly sailed. In fact, it has long since vanished in the Bermuda Triangle.

Where is YOUR happiness in all this? is this REALLY how you want to waste your life? expose your kids to this level of misery?

How do you think they will find happiness in their own relationships if all they have to base their relationships is the one between you and your H?

My experience - Some people are just very, very good at lying. I still can't believe the lies that I was told, they were shocking. Lied when we went for counselling. And I am sure that there are plenty more than I'll never know about.

I too feel like I was a complete mug, but really I think we are just nice, honest, loving people who are taken advantage of.

just to clarify - I didn't find out most of the truth until after we had split up

Thanks Hissy and thanks NotJanine. This has been very useful to me indeed.

Hissy, everything you have said is exactly what I have been contemplating over the past few months, and I am determined to be a good role model to my children. I also do not want to waste any more of my time. He has defo lied to me, and that is unacceptable to me. I have basically set the last attempt at trying to make it work by going to see a counsellor, because he has admitted that he needs to work on himself.... But I don't know if that will make any difference, because is he is still withholding truth from me, he is clearly very deeply screwed up and sometimes people never get over these issues.

I'm especially cynical now after hearing that your ex, NotJanine, even lied during counselling. Sorry to hear that. I find it terrifying to think that people who have been so supportive in some areas and so good at making you think they love you can also be sooooo good at lying.

I'm also really confused because I am a very forgiving person. I know people make mistakes, it's about how they deal with the mistakes is what makes them the good or bad person. I just totally value honesty. If he has cheated then I'll work on forgiving me, if he can tell me the truth. And I'm hoping the counselling will enable this.....

Thanks guys for your help. I really appreciate it.

If he met up with a woman he was flirting with in a hotel room something physical happened. They didn't meet up to play cluedo.

Thanks HildaOg. He made out it was to help her out because she wanted to stay out and party and she would miss the last train home.... So he said it was helping out a mate. Hmmm m

I think you know that's totally not what happened, Pinky. I trust my OH as much as is possible to trust another human being, but if he told me that I would think it was a load of bollocks.
The only thing he was helping her with was removing those pesky clothes.
He's a liar. He's making you doubt yourself. You're worth more.

Yeah well you see a mistake is forgetting to lock a door, or put the bins out.

It's not signing up for a swingers site or chasing various females.

He needs to work on himself? Great! Glad he sees that.

He can work on himself as a separated man...

While you work on finding your happiness and enjoying breathing a free and honest life, showing kids why cheats aren't worth anything at all.

The forgiving person bit...

Who taught you that you weren't worth honesty? Fidelity and genuine trust and love?

Why do you put yourself at the very bottom on the list of priorities?

I've just read our other thread.
My XH lied, until we got past the point of no return.
Then he admitted tons of shit that he'd been lying about for years.
I know this might not be helpful.
Are you both going to counselling ?

Not that I can help much - but my liar - when bust (OW contacted me first) - has since talked - like the floodgates opened - admits a rotten s*d etc etc. Full of remorse. Fact remains until bust he lied. Now he swears this is his wake up call and will never stray again. Still not clear on the whys, how he can live with lies for years (so as not to hurt me?!) and expect me to trust ever again. I have just started reading Not Just Friends by S Glass to try and work some sense into my insanity. Can recommend. Looks like mine was an opportunistic cheat (works away) and there was no way I would have ever found out until OW bust him. So every chance and opportunity to repeat it seems. Weirdly I am thankful OW got in touch despite all the pain.

Thanks SuperSix77 and Hissy! You guys are so right. I think I find it very hard to actively take on these points you are making and live life accordingly because I had a challenging childhood which, for reasons which I won't say, means that I don't know whether or not to trust my own experience/cannot tell if someone is doing me wrong. Actually my partner has said a few times that my vulnerability is what attracted me to him. Not a great sign with all this in mind really, I guess.

If anyone is interested this is my original post about what happened with that girl:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2780851-Partner-cheating

Thanks redshoeblueshoe and brokenbird. We are about to start counselling and I am going to read that book.

I just basically want to have tried everything before we reach point of no return. Just so that I know I have tried all avenues. Because there are two very young kids involved too :-(

I think that if you want to save a relationship, the absolute minimum you need is that both partners want to save it and are willing to be completely open and honest about what they want. If you never know when your DP is lying or telling the truth, it's impossible to mend a relationship.
Trust is the hardest thing to get back once it's broken.
For me, it was the blatant willingness to lie that broke it for me rather than the sex when I'd found out about the affairs.
For years, he told me I was paranoid, overreacting, had trust issues, and I believed it.
Then I finally saw all the messages and confronted him and told him repeatedly all I wanted was him to be honest with me because I needed to be able to trust him.
And then I watched him swear blind to my face that he would never lie to me, acting really upset at me accusing him, then lie straight after.
Each time I gave just him enough info to let him know I knew it wasn't true, and the whole process started again. Lie after lie after lie, trying to turn it into me being unreasonable for being paranoid etc.
I still find it weird talking to him (we also have young DC so need to keep it amicable) because he still seems so outwardly nice and charming, and it's hard to reconcile the nice guy persona he puts across with the deceitful and me-first person I now know he is.
OP, you need to start from a minimum position of honesty if your relationship can be saved, and you can fight for it and work at the relationship until you're exhausted, but if he's not going to meet that minimum, there's nothing you can do.
Good luck with the counselling. I hope everything works out for you and your DC.

Oh, just read your other thread. You deserve better than this. I don't see how counselling can help tbh. That level of deceit can't be helped by better communicating IMO.

Thank you WinchesterInATardis. It sounds like I am in a very similar position to where you once were. Especially because it seems your ex was a real Jekyll and Hyde, nice, charming and lovely on top but all the time hiding some ugly truths. It sounds like it was very painful. Well done for getting out of it.

May I ask, how did you actually discover the messages? Were they texts/emails etc? I ask because I have found things occasionally by trawling hard through whatever I can get my hands on at the time, but he is very good at deleting all his texts/emails and keeping phone to self etc. (BTW I really have not spied on him that much, all things considering, because I really hate to act like this!! And I am looking after two young crazy kids, which doesn't make for having much time on my hands!)

And thanks for your other message ;-)

It's funny to here what other people think. I'm always minimising the situation and thinking maybe I am overreacting!

In my experience for what it's worth he will never tell you the truth. I lived with a born liar for 6 years. He had EA with a woman from work (stupidly left proof on an open laptop), he visited massage parlour with his friend, swore he just sat and waited for his mate (yeah right), then he bought a PAYG phone and started messaging ME from it, trying to 'catch me out' or something, trying to trap me into an incriminating conversation with an anonymous person for no reason at all and totally out of the blue. A year later I found that phone (I'd always known/suspected the messages were him because of the way they were written - and I'd shared them with him straight away). He'd been messaging some other poor girl creepy messages that day. Swore blind he'd found the phone in our garden!!!! Denied and denied and denied. He admitted it 4 years later as I was leaving (yes 4 years!!). If your gut is telling you he's lying, trust it. Gut feelings are there for a reason. It doesn't make you paranoid (he will imply you are). It's self preservation. I separated from my ex 2 years ago and although I'm perfectly happy now, im still livid with myself for wasting all that precious time with him. You can put things to the back of your mind or try to make the best of things but in my experience that is delaying the inevitable. You only get one go at life, be happy and don't settle for second best xx

The trouble with habitual / compulsive liars is that they get so much practice that they become quite good at doing it convincingly. However they do usually trip themselves up at some point.

It seems to me that you're hung up on the wrong thing - because he's good at showing he loves you, you think that has something to do with whether he's cheating or not. I know people seem to think if someone loves you they won't cheat, but it's not true imo. I truly believe that my ex loved me, and still does - but he was still a liar and unfaithful. He never wanted us to end, he just couldn't or wouldn't keep it in his pants.

'Love' doesn't mean that much, it cannot change a person's character. It's love as far as they are capable. The transformative power of love is a crock of shite.

just going thro this now. I 'knew' for years but would never have proved it without an investigator. in the end I said I was leaving anyway and he finally admitted everything. it was a long list. I feel so much better knowing, I am glad he was truthful, it gave me closure. I think I would actually pay a private investigator next time just to prove to myself I was not paranoid/mad

Category12, thank you, LOL "a crock of shite" - totally right. Liars and dickheads are also capable of love. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I hadn't really thought of that. I kind of equated love with being honest, but of course the two don't have to go hand in hand.

JK1773 thanks for sharing your experience. What an arsehole he was to you. I also feel like I'm wasting my time here, but I think I'm still in the naive hopeful stage. I'm probably being very stupid.

GrandDesespoir that is a very good point. I do think my partner has become practiced at lying cos he had an overbearing and intrusive mum.

PaintingByNumbers thanks for telling me your story. You are very brave to tell him you were leaving on your gut instincts. Did you leave for good, or did you work through it...?

You need to understand that sometimes you'll never find evidence, and sometimes they will stick to the lie - no matter how batshit and obvious that lie is.

My XH fucked prostitutes. Nice. He never admitted it, and although I had overwhelming circumstantial evidence I never had anything that disproved his bullshit "I never went through with it". Until after we split when he got more careless with his passwords and I had the fun of reading a review left on a prostitute booking site

Anyway, two things - one, he never admitted to it.

But here's the other thing... there was one really pathetic lie, early on. It really mattered to me because it was the incident I first discovered and when I should have just dumped him - my new boyfriend of 3 months. It was an email he'd sent to a woman saying little more "nice to chat to you online this evening". Swore blind that his mate sent it for a laugh. Except: it wasn't funny (I don't just mean that's not a kind thing to do - it was also just not funny, immature humour couldn't explain it cos there was nothing funny about it!) And also - as I detailed to him - it contained two very very distinctive spelling and grammar mistakes that my XH always made

So, we split up. And I said look, just for my peace of mind, it makes no difference now. You and I know you were fucking prostitutes, so can you please just admit now to that email, as it's minor in comparison? "I wish I could tell you it was me, but I can't lie to you"
He had buried himself so far into the lie that he won't ever admit it. He lied in counselling too.

Don't count on ever getting the truth.

My moment of freedom came when I finally realised that I didn't need evidence, didn't need him to tell the truth - I could just say "enough, in done". I cannot tell you how good it felt to let go of all that analysis and over thinking and evidence hunting!