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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Ca you cheat on somebody and still love them?

127 replies

Latenightthoughts · 01/02/2017 23:36

Following on from a dinner I've just had with a male friend(purely platonic our mums have been best friends since we were born he's like a gross older brother to me) and DP was with us, this isn't some segue into hidden feelings.

He thinks yes. I'm not sure. Especially if you're talking more than once. He thinks that's too black and white and it's perfectly possible to love one person whilst having sex with another.
I left my ex DH as he had an affair. At the time people said I was being too cut and dried but I stand by my decision. I do sometimes wonder if I was being too simplistic though.

OP posts:
Gileswithachainsaw · 07/02/2017 09:42

I think that's too simple a way of looking at it tbh navy and off

Sometimes love is the very thing that git you there.

If people weren't committed to their partners they wouldn't have put themselves through half the stuff they did just to remain supportive and keep the person they love happy.

Offred · 07/02/2017 09:47

Well not really since commitment is something that needs to be constantly reaffirmed. Like honesty and loyalty.

Sometimes it can be wearing to be committed, loyal and honest if you are not getting it back. That can mean that your commitment, loyalty and honesty wanes and leads to cheating. Or you could be a person who struggles with commitment, loyalty and honesty which leads to cheating.

loobyloo1234 · 07/02/2017 10:00

I think so yes. One long term ex, cheated on me ... and only after the relationship ended did I ask why he had done it. He said because he could and it was nothing to do with his feelings for me. He tore my world apart, but I do honestly think it was purely about sex only as it never went beyond a ONS. And that was completely his issue and not mine. I don't think he will ever be faithful

jobanana · 07/02/2017 20:09

Esoteric, Loobyloo ... I think that's it - they do it because they can. When I saw this thing unfolding, he saw it too for what it was - we both acknowledged that there was a chemistry between him and her (we literally joked about it at the start) and I told him to avoid all private conversation with her - he said please let me have her as a friend - I get on with her so well - she's an amazing friend and she's a great woman and no line would ever be over-stepped. And I don't think he would have. So I thought well you know being together through life means you have to let someone be themselves - you can't lock them up - you have to trust them. After all, I reasoned, he's not a dog (big mistake ; ). But what I hadn't bargained on was her. She was fucking totally determined, from the outset. She set about it like a project. She didn't work, she had all the time in the world, her hard-working husband, who paid for everything and gave her a 50K credit card into the bargain, even did loads of school runs, doing evening classes with the kids, taking them off on a Sunday, etc. She was spoilt and loved like nobody ever on this Earth. And her husband went away every 3 weeks for 2 weeks or so, leaving her alone.

But, of course, because she had all that, when she saw something else she wanted, she had to have that too.

I was unlucky - we were unlucky. I do think that. He doesn't speak great English and one of the things she did in her free time was to try to learn his language (I speak it fluently). She paid people to translate emails to him. It was like Single White Female. She moved two streets away from us. She sent him messages with those fucking pictures of roses and sunsets and 'I'm working harder and harder every day to be the perfect woman of your desires'. She researched our relationship, had me to tea and dinner and quizzed me on our lives. She was dominant and he followed. I know some here will say no no he had a choice, but trust me, I know him, and I know her.

She set the whole thing up. And then she drew him into the most elaborate, 24/7 programme of lying, skulking, hiding stuff, etc. It was their world, and it delighted her. Not just that she'd got him, but also how she was lying and getting away with it.

Ok, enough of her - I long ago diagnosed her as a female sociopath (if not psychopath) - but - the truth is that if a guy thinks he can get away with it, and he is vulnerable in some way (is that type, there's a problem in the relationship), then it probably won't happen unless he meets that dangerous female, but if he does ... you can't do anything. Short of locking him in the cellar.

We could have gone on forever without that happening. If we had just stayed in our circle of decent people, it wouldn't have happened. He wasn't looking for it. But it turned up, with bells on, and he succumbed. He should have cut her off. He should have stonewalled her. He should even have been rude to her. But he wasn't. He was entranced by her. He was flattered beyond belief. And he was also determined to show that he could have her if he wanted. It was a classic chase.

Later it didn't go so well - later he realised what he was losing and he became insanely jealous about me, listening devices, recording, tracking, crazy behaviour - after I told him ok cool do what you like, and I will too. He had depended on me being there and then he realised that in focusing on the one, he was losing the chicken he'd thought safely in the coop. Whoops.

But yeah, it's all in tatters. I do think it's possible for people to love more than one person at the same time in a sexual relationship. Each one is a different love. But it really isn't a viable way to go about life.

Not sure why I'm being quite so gung-ho this evening. Am not really.

Dadaist · 07/02/2017 20:10

Oh dear Jobanana - I'm so sorry. I'd erroneously assumed you were reflecting on a past relationship - which was presumptive of me!

Well - I think you are going to have to either get past this or end things. And you of course you haven't shared the details - but it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks - it's how you feel that matters.
You know there are a few sites (e.g. Couple connection) that offer help and sound advice for overcoming things like infidelity- recovering and then strengthening your relationship. If you have deep ties with someone and the betrayal has been poor judgement, a moment of weakness or perhaps more complex, then you need to ask whether you can forgive, and trust again? It is possible and has happened for many people in long term loving relationships. But what you can't really do is stay stuck in a half relationship- unable to forget, to move forward - but unable to end things.
Honestly- you need to talk it through with someone and see what you have and what you can do.

Dadaist · 07/02/2017 20:15
  • ah - cross post with yours just now - but the above still stands! And yes - it sounds complex. You need to unravel it perhaps - and find out what matters?
jobanana · 07/02/2017 20:16

Thank you ... it's much, much worse, though. I can't say it all here. But it is so much worse.

I know men often don't talk. I know they just lie in silence, watching Top Gear. But they're there. He's here. But I'm lost.

I so wasn't planning on beginning my life again. But I know that, whether I like it or not, things seem to fall into eras. I know this is the end of an era. I know it's time to change.

He will always say the opposite of what he thinks he should, if he feels pushed. He conforms in public or with people with whom he still has a chance of being taken seriously. But in private, after time ... he can't hide anything. He reacts, sometimes violently, against the simplest of courtesies. He is the definition of the rebel without a cause.

And I'm tired of it.

jobanana · 07/02/2017 20:17

Yes, I do need to unravel it - have been feeling for some time I really do - but I can't find the right person.

They keep suggesting earnest grandmas. And I want a man. Who will understand.

Esoteric · 07/02/2017 21:10

I empathise hugely, I too fell victim to the 'perfect hippy chick girl' at a point when we were having business issues and his mum was dying, it was a perfect storm that he wanted to 'get some mental 'escape from' and this youngish woman had no complications , blew smoke up his arse and stupid me allowed them to travel round the world effectively with her as tour assistant because it never crossed my mind that he would cross the barrier. Although it was 11 years ago, it was only recently I had proof of anything and like you, I find he is here and I feel but a shadow of 'me' . I am effectively being told to 'move on mentally' and accept that he was 'a bit of a twat' for a period (as he said). But for me it's not so simple as that. He says the whole thing wasn't about me at all, he never felt any less for me.

Dadaist · 07/02/2017 21:46

Who keeps suggesting Jo?
Do you think a man will offer a better insight into what has taken place from your partners perspective, as in what may have the drivers of behaviour? Anyway I think that's OK - you should seek out someone your are comfortable with or it won't work.

jobanana · 07/02/2017 22:01

I have a lot of clients who are doctors, and I asked them for a recommendation of a psychologist - as much really so I could understand her attack of me (it wasn't just about having him - it was about destroying me). (In which she did not succeed!).

I don't want a sensible and well-meaning older lady to talk to me about self-esteem. I need somebody who won't be shocked, and to whom I can tell everything.

How to find that person, thought? :(

jobanana · 07/02/2017 22:04

Esoteric - at least it was ages ago, and he sees it as nothing. At least he's willing and with you. Maybe there's hope if you talk to someone?

Eevee77 · 08/02/2017 00:24

Yes, IMO. I haven't been cheated on but I have been betrayed. He said he loved me and I believed him but what hurt the most was growing up and realizing it didn't matter because loves does not conquer all.

jobanana · 08/02/2017 07:35

Love only conquers all if it wants to. Both have to want.

Offred · 08/02/2017 08:24

I don't like that phrase... it is stupid and oppressive...

The only love I am interested in is love that is founded on mutual trust, respect and honesty.

Can't see myself 'forgetting' or 'forgiving' cheating. Also don't think it is accurate to say 'I was a bit of a twat 11 years ago move on' he has continued being 'a bit of a twat' through 11 years of lying. LTB.

And I do think there is a huge amount to be said for just deciding the cheater/liar has been a bastard and not forensically examining yourself or your relationship.

jobanana · 08/02/2017 08:35

Yes, Offred, I think you're right - but it takes people different lengths of time to get there. I think it depends how your childhood was. No lying was our top rule. And forgiving and making up and showing our love was our next one. So I literally had no emotional strategies for dealing with a lying fuck.

jobanana · 08/02/2017 08:37

If you don't have that, fur some time you just feel dizzy and are trying to get a handle on what this is. It made me feel sick too. It's like there's a parallel universe and now you have to reassess your past in terms of what was actually happening. From 11 years back that must be some mental and emotional upheaval. It changes the past, and the world as you know it. A dreadful shock.

PoorYorick · 08/02/2017 08:45

Yes of course. It's also possible to love someone and still have to walk away from them because they've hurt you too deeply.

Love and sex don't work on a sort of litmus test where if you do X it must be love and if you do Y it isn't. Humans are complicated and contradicting.

Eolian · 08/02/2017 08:47

Yes. Human beings and relationships are complex. Who actually decides what the definition of love is anyway? There are lots of different kinds of love. People hurt the people they love all the time. Loving somebody doesn't make it physically impossible to do something that will hurt them. Romantic love is pretty much a social construct anyway. It's just a combination of physical attraction, things in common, affection, shared experience etc. Or a combination of some of those things. Love in itself is no guarantee of permanence or of perpetual good behaviour towards your partner. If love meant you never deeply upset or hurt your partner, not that many relationships would actually qualify as love.

Imo fidelity is more to do with morals and strength of character than it is to do with how much you love somebody. Some people wouldn't cheat even if they didn't love their partner. Others would potentially cheat however much they loved their partner, because that's the kind of person they are.

jobanana · 08/02/2017 09:20

Eolian, agree completely - and this is similar to what Dadaist said. It's to do with morals. Some allow themselves, others don't. Some look for any justification to allow themselves, others see it for what it is - temptation - and decide against it.

This thread has helped me, for one, because now I understand what the rift between us is - moral strength. I have it.

PoorYorick · 08/02/2017 09:39

jobanana, I'm so sorry for the pain you're suffering and I hope you can find peace soon. I'm a little concerned that you seem to be buying into the narrative of the predatory OW who is really the one who's to blame, though. Your partner's possessive behaviour and your subsequent post about him indicate that this was at least as much a fault in him as in her. As is the fact that he chose to befriend her while knowing he was deeply attracted and you had something to fear from it.

You do need to know, truly know, who he is before you can decide how to proceed. He's the one you have the relationship with.

Hugs for you and your pain xx

jobanana · 08/02/2017 09:52

Thx PYorick ... really, thank you. I was entirely sceptical about this site (being wary of smug Mums ; ) (I'm not one of those) (a mother but not a smug one) ... I didn't think of it as somewhere where I might actually hear things that would make me feel better, but I have. Thank you.

And yes, I would say exactly the same as you about not blaming the OW, usually. And of course he is always the one who, whatever he was presented with, should have been stronger and different. I have pretty much got there with that, now I think.

But this woman is like absolutely nobody I have ever met before. Probably her second sentence to me was - as she smiled coyly up with her baby blue eyes framed in absurdly blonde locks, pearly white teeth shining (no fillings ever), Cath Kidson apron bursting at the seams over her ample bosom - 'Oh, by the way, I'm a witch. And my mother, and grandmother before me. And my daughter is, too - pure evil - just like I was as a child.' She then pretty much skipped off, laughing.

Truly, I would challenge anybody ever to have come across a creature like her. She is straight out of Grimms Fairy Tales (when they were dark and unabridged).

jobanana · 08/02/2017 09:52

Thx PYorick ... really, thank you. I was entirely sceptical about this site (being wary of smug Mums ; ) (I'm not one of those) (a mother but not a smug one) ... I didn't think of it as somewhere where I might actually hear things that would make me feel better, but I have. Thank you.

And yes, I would say exactly the same as you about not blaming the OW, usually. And of course he is always the one who, whatever he was presented with, should have been stronger and different. I have pretty much got there with that, now I think.

But this woman is like absolutely nobody I have ever met before. Probably her second sentence to me was - as she smiled coyly up with her baby blue eyes framed in absurdly blonde locks, pearly white teeth shining (no fillings ever), Cath Kidson apron bursting at the seams over her ample bosom - 'Oh, by the way, I'm a witch. And my mother, and grandmother before me. And my daughter is, too - pure evil - just like I was as a child.' She then pretty much skipped off, laughing.

Truly, I would challenge anybody ever to have come across a creature like her. She is straight out of Grimms Fairy Tales (when they were dark and unabridged).

jobanana · 08/02/2017 09:54

oops it went wrong! Wasn't posting twice for emphasis!! : D

jobanana · 08/02/2017 09:55

oops it went wrong! Wasn't posting twice for emphasis!! : D

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