Marriage on last legs

[Dothehokeykokey]

So. Together 20 years, living together for 18, married for 16. Both still under 45.

The relationship between the two adults (there are two kids under 12) is dead. Nothing in common, no effort made to spend time together, and no sex life, to the point that one party (me) would happily leave if it were financially viable.

The oh would blame me for all sorts and I am not stupid enough to think that I am blameless in ending up where we are, but I do genuinely feel that where we are now at a point where the kids are more grown up and independent and where I would like to make an effort to refresh our own relatioship, what's the point with a partner who seems happy for us both to exist rather than live and focus their entire life on the kids.

Clearly I love my kids very much and would do anything for them, but how do people cope with a partner who is SO focussed on the children they are happy to see the adult relationship in the family wither to nothing. It makes me feel completely worthless and as if my only role in life was to provide two children and then spend the rest of my life providing for them (which I don't object to, but don't see why it should be at the cost of ANY money to spend on myself, or time for myself or as a couple)

I genuinely believe there are deep seated emotional issues at play relating back to childhood and my partner coming from a family where everything is done for the kids and all the adults just exist to serve the children with no time to themselves or any actual meaningful relationships.

Apparently, I am unreasonable for wanting to get a babysitter every now and then so we could go for a walk, meal etc.

Apparently I am unreasonable for suggesting that in the evening when the kids go to bed (9pm) isn't the only time that ironing etc can be done (it's not fair on the kids to do it when they are up?), and apparently I am totally unreasonable for suggesting that three hour baths with a book every night when it's the only time we get together as a couple might be better spent doing something together?

Any suggestion of putting time aside for sex is seen as "being selfish" any suggestion of trying anything other than missionary position with the lights of is apparently "sad" and for people who can't be fulfilled by "normal sex with a person they love". Incidentally this is also off the cards at the moment until I take responsibility for contraception, which can't include condoms.

I know I am wasting my time and am ashamed to admit I am for the first time ever considering looking for some time for myself, new hobbies,new excitement and ultimately a new relationship outside of the marriage.

Leave. Find a good lawyer and crack on with a divorce. If you're unhappy and she's unwilling to help repair the relationship then there is nothing more you can do. Life is far too short to spend it with someone who is only interested in you as the party that pays the mortgage.

It's over man. Start the process and get out.

PaterPower you still don't seem to get it. Both kids under 12, so likely primary age. Therefore still good for them to have a parent around before and after school. In this case a full working day for someone who has to fit it in around school hours is going to be less than 7 hours. Unless flexible hours are available it's probably short shifts spread over a number of days, which she wouldn't have much control over. Having tried to find a school friendly job myself, unless you have help to cover school drop off/pick up/ sickness (and op says he works 70 hrs a week, so can't be around much - maybe contributing to the disconnect of an independently capable wife?) or want to spend all your wages on childcare (after school /holidays) it's very difficult to find something.
Not impossible, but I don't think you should be criticising for her having a few hours a week. OP hasn't explained what this is, but if she was lazy (as implied), she wouldn't have even bothered with this, surely?

You may not place much value in her long term contribution as the children's main carer Paterpower but a divorce court will.

Duty f*ck? No but she is told the loving sex she does have with the Op isn't fulfilling. Oh and he's resentful it might just be his turn to take responsibility for contraception after all their 20 years together and her giving him two children. Where's his concern for her physical and emotional wellbeing? I don't blame her for disappearing to the bath with a good book.

He describes relationships within her family as meaningless, her whole outlook on life as drudgery.

She didn't say she was happy for him to sod off with someone else but that he should go and find the imaginary perfect woman that's so fun he's constantly comparing her to and telling her she isn't.

The Op's the one who has checked out and I don't blame her for withdrawing from him and all the criticism..

He needs to learn to value her for who she is again. Even if they don't stay together she will always be the Mother of his children.

50/50 very unlikely in this case on the info here. Suddenly deciding to cut his working hours before going to court a bad idea. Stability and the wellbeing of the children would be paramount, it would be preferable for them to remain in the family home with their main carer, Mum, as they continue through school.

Cuppa total crap

^^ what moving said

cuppa - we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't really think you'd want to be on his side of this "relationship" and I still don't think you'd be saying the same to a woman if she were the OP. But c'est la vie.

Sounds to me as if she is depressed, has she seen anyone? Also do you really listen to her/each other? Is she mad at something from a long time ago that you won't accept her feelings on or explain away when it's brought up? Does she feel trapped and has decided there is no point in covering old ground as you won't take her views on board? Why don't you both write things down for a few weeks then swap and give each other time to read and think about what the other is saying, then agree to talk about them and listen, really listen.Then you can decide if it's over. Perhaps she says nothing as she doesn't know how to say it without being shot down, or made to feel in the wrong, so doesn't bother anymore, she's no further forward but not had the draining experience of a row to get to feeling worse for mentioning it? Just saying...

What I can't understand is how she can justify being too busy with her friends to spend time with you, but yet you are selfish for wanting a hobby/activity for yourself?

OP How is your relationship with the children? Do you engage with them? Spend quality time? Do activities with them that they have chosen to do (without your wife) Do you help with lifts to out of school activities? Prepare a meal or wash up with them? Do you tuck them in bed, talk about their day, occasionally share a story?
You may do all of these things, but if not they are the foundation of a good adult relationship with them, not just while they are children.
I say this because my nearly grown up son doesn't now particularly want to stay over at his Dad's because he was just as detached from him as me and never did any of those things with him. I would say this is important whether you stay or go ( and from what you say leaving might be a very understandable decision having separated recently for quite comparable reasons) All the best

I missed the 70 hours a week. In that case it really is going to be very hard for her to work any more hours. My ex worked like that, too. It meant that I couldn't work after the kids were back from school, which is more restrictive than you might assume. And if OP is anything like my ex, his wife will be responsible whenever the kids are ill (which is often at that age), pissing off any potential employer mightily.

If you work Mon-Fri, OP, that means 14 hours a day, i.e. you might come home at 9 p.m.? By that time your wife has been looking after the kids for 5 hours in the afternoon/evening, another hour or two in the morning (already a full day's work), plus household chores of some sort the rest of the day or you would not have any food on the table and would have to wade through the mess. (My two are 17 and 19 and still somehow manage to leave a trail of banana skins, socks and dirty spoons whenever they pass through a room.) During the time spent at home she will have little adult contact or anything to keep her brain functioning or make her feel appreciated, which is very draining even if you like parenting. And she works seven hours on top of that.

By 9 p.m. she'll be knackered. If you can't rearrange your working hours so that you can come home at 6 or 7 and take over some of the drudge work so that she is still slightly awake at 9 p.m., you're going to have to readjust your expectations about week nights!

My ex never quite got this either - but I notice that now he's with his new gf, suddenly it is in fact important to him to leave his evenings free and do other things in his free time so he is in a better mood. Shame he didn't bother to do that when we were together.

"By 9 p.m. she'll be knackered. If you can't rearrange your working hours so that you can come home at 6 or 7 and take over some of the drudge work so that she is still slightly awake at 9 p.m., you're going to have to readjust your expectations about week nights!"

I am self employed and have an office at home as well as at actual "work". A huge amount of my work is done between 05:00 and the kids getting up at 7:30 when I make their breakfast and packed lunches and often take them to school.

I am always home by 4 on a Monday to help with some out of school activities, and nearly always by 5:30 every other night.

Meal together, then more work as needed.

Tonight I need to be home by 5:30 to take one to an activity and take the youngest with me as the wife has an important meeting with some friends in the pub.

This thread shows the complete double standards between men and women.

If it were the other way round the man would surely have been called emotionally and financially abusive but here people are saying maybe the woman has depression. There's nothing wrong with her... she's just a working mum who'd rather put energy into her own downtime or her friends than into her marriage. It's as simple as that. No wonder OP is put out!!

If she was a man she'd be called a cocklodger. As she's a woman she's perfectly entitled to sit on her arse doing fuck all in a filthy house all day.

How do you imagine the future without her? How much time would you expect to see the DCs? How would the money pan out? She doesn't sound like a good partner, but do you see her as a good mother?

Oh my God, this gets worse. Frankly even if she was climbing all over you every night and hanging on your every word, she would still be totally taking the piss in terms of the division of labour by the sounds of it. She clearly has little respect or care for you; you get up at 5 to start work and then have to make lunches and breakfast and sometimes bring them to school? Where is she when all that's going on? Totally agree about the double standards by some on this thread.

The very frustrating thing is that if you separate, she could easily get the house and the lions share of the custody. I would be very strategically making note of both of your contributions to the running of the household and the care of the children in the coming weeks and months so that if you do make the move, you have the information to make your case to try to have that not happen. That sounds terribly manipulative but it doesn't sound at all like she would be fair-minded so you have to protect your interests and those of the children.

"The wife"- that says a lot and IMO is not good, you don't sound as if you want to try to get to the bottom of the real problems, she may well be equally to blame, but if you want to save your marriage you need to approach all of this from a different angle to determine if either of you are willing/want to make it work.

Sorry, can't see how you fit 70 hours work in if you're home by 4 every Mon and 5.30 most other days. Are you working at home from then and counting this? Because if you are, it's irrelevant if you're at home, you are still unavailable. Also, are you including making breakfast for kids etc in your 'work' time in the morning, because you don't see this as work for your wife. An interesting amount of martyred drip feeding going on here....

Selective answering, too - zero response to my other suggestions. Only answers to prove me wrong

I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe to some of you on here; can you not accept that sometimes a woman can be lazy or a user or fucking bitch and that a man can sometimes be the one being taken advantage of? My oldest friend is in situation similar to this and I feel so sorry for him but he stays because he knows he'd be screwed if they separated. I'm sure the OP is not perfect or a saint but if even half what he says is true, I think he's getting a very fucking rough deal in this marriage. Would you truthfully be happy if your brother or son was in this situation? Up at 5 and working on into the evening in between housework, kids and then not allowed hobbies or any kind of personal or couple time? While she has an apparently great old life. Depressed? Are you for real?

I don't call never seeing my husband because he's always working a great old life. Seems to me she's had to build her own life to fit in with his circumstances because he's never there, they've drifted apart because of it. He speaks condescendingly of everything she does (or doesn't do), she seems to be fine without him. Doesn't make either of them bad, or wrong. Unable to see each others side of things, maybe.

Dear OP

You are right to say you don't have a relationship with your partner anymore. It makes no difference to me whether you are a man or a woman - in terms of how you would like to live your life this isnt it. Talk to her and tell her how you feel. Tell her you love her, but you want to have a real and meaningful relationship with her. You love being a parent but you need love and caring in an adult emotional relationship, with sex and tenderness. Ask her what you can do to make that possible - is it possible and will she invest in it too? Whether through counselling, but you also need time together and investment in a relationship that isn't just focussed on the children. But also be honest and say, if you cant have that you are not sure if you can continue. Because it hurts you, pains you and makes you feel like you've disappeared, unloved. Maybe she feels that too, and would love to be loved as you do? Put it all out there. Without these things you cant survive as a human being and you doubt really, that she can be truly happy without those things too. So, if the relationship is over, you need to both find the most kind, caring way to separate whilst absolutely protecting the children.

But, I'd say to you looking at the age of your children it would actually be better to split up when the children are this age, not when they are in the full flow of teenage hood.

My marriage ended and my best friend - a man - told me the kids deserve two loving parents, but not necessarily together and that if I ever used the kids against my ex he would tell me - because that is wrong. He was right.

I have managed it all with dignity and grace. It was hard and painful and sometimes, I felt sad or lonely - as we all do. But since the split I've had the most amazing adventures and experiences - we are both good and committed parents - we do parents evenings and birthdays together, we talk about school progress and kids emotional stuff.

But I have lived. Since the divorce I have had so much passion and joy, I've fallen in love and been loved. I have lived and breathed. My kids have seen it and been inspired by it. No ironing involved.

Wow.

People questioning the hours I work and suggesting I put more effort in.

Just to clarify I stated right from the start I am not perfect.

It's 2017 and I am self employed running a business which is doing rather well thank you. It would do much better if my wife showed a bit of interest and put a few hours a week in but that's irrelevant.

For info it is perfectly possible to work and take part in child care with modern technology. Tomorrow my son has football, I will be up at five working from home (laptop, phone) make his breakfast and take him to R.E.M. raining while wife and daughter are home as they both have nothing on.

While he is playing I can sit in the van and work on admin and proposals because it's 2017, I can then drop him home and go out and do some installations and site visits in the afternoon. Home for tea, kids to bed, keep on top of some regular professional retesting I have to do online, a few quotes, emails etc.

70 hours is a slack week tbh as in this day and age you are always working if self employed due to mobiles and the internet.

Thanks all for you input.

And if you never turn off from work I can see how your partner is becoming distant. I'd say the same whether you were a man or a woman.

namechange
Dear God, she simply can't be the one at any sort of fault, as far as you're concerned, can she?!

OP the question is what you're going to do from here. Good luck, whatever you decide.