Marriage on last legs

[Dothehokeykokey]

So. Together 20 years, living together for 18, married for 16. Both still under 45.

The relationship between the two adults (there are two kids under 12) is dead. Nothing in common, no effort made to spend time together, and no sex life, to the point that one party (me) would happily leave if it were financially viable.

The oh would blame me for all sorts and I am not stupid enough to think that I am blameless in ending up where we are, but I do genuinely feel that where we are now at a point where the kids are more grown up and independent and where I would like to make an effort to refresh our own relatioship, what's the point with a partner who seems happy for us both to exist rather than live and focus their entire life on the kids.

Clearly I love my kids very much and would do anything for them, but how do people cope with a partner who is SO focussed on the children they are happy to see the adult relationship in the family wither to nothing. It makes me feel completely worthless and as if my only role in life was to provide two children and then spend the rest of my life providing for them (which I don't object to, but don't see why it should be at the cost of ANY money to spend on myself, or time for myself or as a couple)

I genuinely believe there are deep seated emotional issues at play relating back to childhood and my partner coming from a family where everything is done for the kids and all the adults just exist to serve the children with no time to themselves or any actual meaningful relationships.

Apparently, I am unreasonable for wanting to get a babysitter every now and then so we could go for a walk, meal etc.

Apparently I am unreasonable for suggesting that in the evening when the kids go to bed (9pm) isn't the only time that ironing etc can be done (it's not fair on the kids to do it when they are up?), and apparently I am totally unreasonable for suggesting that three hour baths with a book every night when it's the only time we get together as a couple might be better spent doing something together?

Any suggestion of putting time aside for sex is seen as "being selfish" any suggestion of trying anything other than missionary position with the lights of is apparently "sad" and for people who can't be fulfilled by "normal sex with a person they love". Incidentally this is also off the cards at the moment until I take responsibility for contraception, which can't include condoms.

I know I am wasting my time and am ashamed to admit I am for the first time ever considering looking for some time for myself, new hobbies,new excitement and ultimately a new relationship outside of the marriage.

This happened with someone I know, it sounds like your wife does not need a relationship and her whole world is her children; not fair on you at all, in fact it's her being selfish if this is the case.

If it is, the situation won't change so you may have to either accept the status quo or do something about it and make a new life without her in it.

What types of things did the counsellor (or you?) suggest she needed to change?

On another note, is there any possibility your wife is experiencing depression, or isnthere anything in her background that would make you think that in addition to families being about the kids, she also believes it should be to the exclusion of a loving spousal relationship?

Finally, was she always like this? For example, did she have issues with you enjoying hobbies before. Hipster? Was your physical relationship always about the end goal of having children?

In this situation it seems counselling is the only way forward. If she will go. If not, you should continue individually.

Sorry, cross posted with your last response.

Would still say it would be worth you asking your wife some simple questions in a direct but caring/gentle way. Counselling isn't for everyone, some people get very embarrassed/emotional talking about things, especially if they have been brought up to bottle things up. And sometimes people don't gel with the counsellor or the sessions go too fast.

People who aren't used to talking about emotions can take a while to get used to it. I'm surprised you got into what each of you was doing right/wrong in the first session with a counsellor- often first session is a bit more "get to know you and get comfortable" with counsellor rather than diving straight in.

Practice, persistence, patience. Kindness, care and compassion. And time.

"You say you have asked your wife to be part of making an effort to save your marriage, but have you asked her why she is unhappy or why she thinks you are selfish? If you start there, you might be able to find solid ground on which to build renewed efforts."

She says she is happy, and would continue to live exactly as we do now if I never mentioned it again. I am "selfish" because we have two lovely kids and the idea that me and her should do things without them (very occasionally) or I should have a few hours a well where I don't see them makes me selfish.

The councillor suggested some time together as a couple, gave us some games and questions to play to try and ignite some conversation about something that isn't the children. I am aware I am grumpy lately due to stress at work, and zero downtime.

The house is also a tip and rightly or wrongly that stresses me out when I come home and she has been home all day (kids at school) but I try my best to keep on top of it. There is a sign at the front door her mum bought us "Excuse the mess. We are busy bringing up my children who will remember fun, not a tidy house" or words to that effect. While I see the sentiment, there has to be a balance.

Anyway, thanks all for the input. I wouldn't ever have an affair, but do think it's time to admit defeat and try and at least have sort sort of life before it passes me by completely or the kids move out in 10 years and we are left in a loveless relationship, at which point if she is anything like her mum all attention will focus on grandkids.

Thanks

Just going to leave this one:

"Why is the house a mess, you've been at home all day?"

Vs

"Why aren't we rich, you've been at work all day"

Is it you doing the ironing? Maybe your wife sees you as an extra child who wants feeding/clean clothes etc and you commenting about the house being a tip just makes her resentful of you?

It strikes me there's been a long slide into resentment and no feeling here, & it's rarely one sided.

Question is what you can do to re-engage with her.

It's good you've asked her if she's happy... are you sure she knows that you would listen to the answer if she said she was unhappy and why?

Or maybe she's uncomfortable talking about things so directly.

You do seem a bit defensive, with an answer for everything, and that can be difficult to open up to.

"Just going to leave this one:

"Why is the house a mess, you've been at home all day?"

Vs

"Why aren't we rich, you've been at work all day"

Is it you doing the ironing? Maybe your wife sees you as an extra child who wants feeding/clean clothes etc and you commenting about the house being a tip just makes her resentful of you?"

I do all my washing and most of the kids. There is very rarely anything to iron as long as it comes straight out of the machine and is hung to dry or dried flat.

She does her own washing an occasionally the kids. It sits in the machine until I next need to use it, then she leaves it wet in a washing basket for a few days, then tumble dries it, then piles it in the corner of our bedroom ready for an occasional late night ironing marathon.

I very rarely pass any comment, certainly much less frequently than she points out how "skint" we are, despite me working 70 hours a week against her 7 and her spending money like it's water.

OP I think you are getting a bit of a hard time here. First of all, I really can't bear it when the stay at home parent argues that they are there just for the children and their needs and somehow don't think cleaning, cooking, tidying, etc. fall within that. As I see it, love is a verb and the work of running the household is all part of the love you show them and your spouse. So it's not an optional extra but part of the whole package and children should see and understand that too. So for what it's worth, I think that yes, you are not wrong to want to walk in after 70 hours work to find the great majority of housework done. Until I separated, I managed to do pretty much all of it and work part-time with 2 children quite a bit younger than yours.

But I know that your gripe is mainly around the lack of connection and fun and just feeling you are living rather than existing. It seems to me you are doing all the right things and being as proactive as you can but truthfully, it sounds like you are flogging a dead horse. You don't want to force her to go out with you in evenings as another chore, you want her to want to go out with you or sit with you in the evenings or look at you as a person not a role. I would be planning my departure I'm afraid but take it from one who knows, don't have an affair; morality and messiness aside, as we can see from this site, infidelity trumps everything and you will end up the bad guy regardless of what passed between you before.

You're the man, which means you're always going to get a hard time on a site like this. I can totally understand why some are saying you sound defensive - it's because you're battling against a bunch of assumptions made because of your gender.

I think most of the pp's have acknowledged you've tried hard here. A partnership has to be give and take and it sounds like she's stuck on the taking bit. You won't change anything about her without her wanting it, and she's flat out told you she's perfectly content with the way things are.

Leave but do NOT start a new relationship for a good few months regardless of who comes into your life. You will inevitably be portrayed as the bad guy (you're the guy after all) but don't feed that with easy ammo.

Make sure you're prepared for the shit storm that will follow. Your kids will be upset and she'll be very nasty once she realises that 7 hours a week in a cushy little sociable job won't be enough to pay her rent. Be prepared for if she denies you time with them as a tool. Prepare yourself for when she drip feeds to them that it's all Daddy's fault.

But also work out the logistics of seeing the kids as frequently as possible - have plans for how/when/where you'll be seeing them. Be prepared for what you'll tell them and when. Think it all through so it's as smooth a change for them as you can both make it.

I have been married for 48 years. There have been periods during that long time when I could have written your post; but I saw marriage as for life and problems as being there to solve. We are still together - he has carried me through surgery and its dreadful aftermath, and I am now carrying him through a neuro-degenerative disorder, whose outcome will be sad.

I do not regret staying together and not seeking some elusive better life elsewhere. There have been good times and bad, and there will be more of both to come I am sure; but I prize loyalty.

It sounds as though your OH is not a bad person and you are just going through a bad patch. Think hard about the grass on the other side of the fence - it may not be greener. Your children may suffer and they will learn that when the going gets tough you bale out.

Horribly familiar, the only difference is that between the pair of us we had just enough financial resource to separate. Three years later, I’m happier, my ex isn’t. I take no joy from that, i wish she could be happy but I suspect that any input from me would be interfering.

My only advice is to lay the facts out starkly, tell her you can’t go on and see what happens.

With the immense respect I feel for you staying together so long Blossom how is counselling (which she put off and then walked out on!) plus numerous attempts to get her to talk and to make time for him (all rebuffed) evidence of him baling out?!!

She's not pulling her weight financially, or in the house, and she's checked out physically and emotionally. SHE has bailed, not him.

I also thought, like you, that my vows meant something and I was prepared to be married for life. My exW thought differently, wouldn't even try counselling and ended up breaking every meaningful promise she'd made to me. And STILL, with the exception of her taking my kids so far away from me, I am far happier with my life now.

OP could be dead in ten years time and you know what? His kids would never understand the sacrifices he'd made if he stayed that decade, and even if they did, would be unlikely to acknowledge it nor thank him for it.

I think not expecting you to have any non child centric tme or activities is very unfair. Dont have an affair though first, my husband apparently felt a bit like this 10 years ago (particularly about the sex side) but instead of telling me how unhappy he was generally decided to have an emotional affair with someone. I didnt fully find out till 10 years later and am now finding this very hard to come to terms with. Going out for meals and walks if you can is normal stuff. If she doesnt even want that it starts to make you look like a pay packet only and I can only presume she is no longer that interested..

How was it the first 8 years without children? Do you think you are fundamentally well-matched? Your last sentence in your original post sounds like you're asking the validity of having an affair outside your marriage. Most people here advise against it, and it does sound like you are complaining bitterly but would put up with it all if you could get a few jollies elsewhere, which to me sounds a bit strange? Unless (ironically) you are "staying for the children". Have you and your wife got this attitude in common? I'm not suggesting it, I'm genuinely asking. I suppose you could gave an affair, but would you be any happier, or would it just make a bigger mess?

You both sound very unhappy. I don't think you should just hang on for some idea of 'loyalty'. You might well both be happier with other people.

Your wife has enough pressure on her - it comes across to me that you demanding she also put effort into you is also adding to her pressure and she is running even further away and resents you even more.
You need to entice her back to the marriage not push or scare her off.
I suspect you come from a family where kids def come second and your parents put their own interests first a bit more.
That being said your children aren't babies anymore and ypi both should be able to reconnect a bit more.
So entice her back starting small - is there a film at the cinema she wants to see? A restaurant she's keen to go to??
How about a holiday where you could send the kids off to kids club like a sun/sail or centre parcs type thing?
You should talk to your wife find out what she wants over the next few years.

And no her behaviour doesn't justify you having an affair (if you should find yourself tempted) but yes both of you need to work on this. What was it that brought u together in first place?

Oh and restart some hobbies and start going out a bit more - you'll be much less resentful of her and happier yourself if you have a bit more balance

Wise words Blossom. We have had periods like you describe in our marriage. Some real low points. But passion and enthusiasm can always re-ignited if it was there to begin with.

My DH took the pressure of the children from me at the weekends. I think it can sometimes be hard for women to switch from mother to lover within an hour or so. I need a good few hours to myself. This has transformed our marriage after a good few years of frustration and resentment.

I think you need to stop feeling resentful of your DW and make positive steps to help her and I'm sure you will see a change - that is if you really want it to work.

OP - there are now three threads (2 x 1000 posts which is the maximum) under the title "Thread for those who have left marriages that weren't AWFUL" where women talk as you do and they get support there. It might be that you can read them and get some ideas. I think it is ok to consider leaving if your wife doesnt want to engage with any kind of attempt to resolve the issues in the marriage.

The advice is the same. Get some money aside. Get a shit hot solicitor. Be prepared for the changes that a would come including your children not liking you/understanding. Be sure to explain that its not about them (given how focussed their mum is on them, if you try to say I was being ignored for you it will not be well received). Work out how things like the home and stuff will be split up. Make sure all your ducks are lined up.

However, and I cannot stress this enough, DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. It will be unfair on everyone and will be very damaging.

The reason I say go to the "Thread for those who have left marriages that weren't AWFUL" is because women there are allowed to be bored/feel ignored/unsatisfied in their marriages and look at leaving. As this thread shows, men less so for some reason.

Again I'm with OP on this.From his posts it does sound as if he has tried everything & all options are no longer viable.20 years of your life is an awful lot to just throw away like that.

Sounds dead in the water

Anotherusername - I can only assume you haven't actually bothered to read through the thread.

Twinklefoot - she takes 3 hour long baths and sees her friends during the day when the kids are at school. Plus it sounds like he's already given up hobbies etc so he has the kids when they're not at school.

Exactly how much unwinding does she need?! And when is he allowed to unwind if he's working 70+ hours a week and then still has to come back to do the housework she isn't?

Start making plans to leave. You have a lot of life left to live. Missionary only forever? Run fast.