Marriage on last legs

[Dothehokeykokey]

So. Together 20 years, living together for 18, married for 16. Both still under 45.

The relationship between the two adults (there are two kids under 12) is dead. Nothing in common, no effort made to spend time together, and no sex life, to the point that one party (me) would happily leave if it were financially viable.

The oh would blame me for all sorts and I am not stupid enough to think that I am blameless in ending up where we are, but I do genuinely feel that where we are now at a point where the kids are more grown up and independent and where I would like to make an effort to refresh our own relatioship, what's the point with a partner who seems happy for us both to exist rather than live and focus their entire life on the kids.

Clearly I love my kids very much and would do anything for them, but how do people cope with a partner who is SO focussed on the children they are happy to see the adult relationship in the family wither to nothing. It makes me feel completely worthless and as if my only role in life was to provide two children and then spend the rest of my life providing for them (which I don't object to, but don't see why it should be at the cost of ANY money to spend on myself, or time for myself or as a couple)

I genuinely believe there are deep seated emotional issues at play relating back to childhood and my partner coming from a family where everything is done for the kids and all the adults just exist to serve the children with no time to themselves or any actual meaningful relationships.

Apparently, I am unreasonable for wanting to get a babysitter every now and then so we could go for a walk, meal etc.

Apparently I am unreasonable for suggesting that in the evening when the kids go to bed (9pm) isn't the only time that ironing etc can be done (it's not fair on the kids to do it when they are up?), and apparently I am totally unreasonable for suggesting that three hour baths with a book every night when it's the only time we get together as a couple might be better spent doing something together?

Any suggestion of putting time aside for sex is seen as "being selfish" any suggestion of trying anything other than missionary position with the lights of is apparently "sad" and for people who can't be fulfilled by "normal sex with a person they love". Incidentally this is also off the cards at the moment until I take responsibility for contraception, which can't include condoms.

I know I am wasting my time and am ashamed to admit I am for the first time ever considering looking for some time for myself, new hobbies,new excitement and ultimately a new relationship outside of the marriage.

There is a sign at the front door her mum bought us "Excuse the mess. We are busy bringing up my children who will remember fun, not a tidy house" or words to that effect.

Ugh. Why do people feel the need to broadcast this sort of tripe, or justify themselves to begin with? I suppose it can be amusing, even charming, to some, but what a load of wank.

It sounds as if she doesn't really want to be in a relationship with you, but doesn't want the upheaval of separating. I think you need to set it all out clearly to her, and if she won't listen then separating is probably the only answer.

This is not a good marriage, in fact it sounds as if it's dead in the water.

*There is a sign at the front door her mum bought us "Excuse the mess. We are busy bringing up my children who will remember fun, not a tidy house" or words to that effect.

Ugh. Why do people feel the need to broadcast this sort of tripe, or justify themselves to begin with? I suppose it can be amusing, even charming, to some, but what a load of wank.*

It is pious wankology.....I'm so busy being such an engaged parent that I don't have time for house or life maintenance. twee perfect messy family.

I need a sign that basically says, "my cleanliness standards are low, you've been warned before you enter". Or no sign at all.....this is my house, I live as I want. My priorities are my own business.

Just tell her you read from her behaviour that the marriage is over as you can't have a marriage without her being present. Then start discussing the split.

I think she has emotionally checked out (her refusal to go through with counselling is not a good sign) and I think it would be a good idea to broach the subject of separating. She will either agree or be so horrified that counselling might seem like a good idea after all.

Agree with QueenLaBeefah tbh.

I think until you actually formalise your separation then she isn't going to take it seriously.

In the meantime can I suggest you start developing some hobbies to go out an build a social life but do not have an affair!!! Sitting in the house being ignored is enough to make anyone feel like giving up. She's clearly happy to stay in every evening, doesn't mean you have to!

She doesn't sound like she's trudging through life at all. She's devoted to the children you have together but also has a sociable part time job, plenty of friends and her own activities in the week.You work long hours so it's good she has that support network.

Why not pursue your own interests as well.

You sound very critical of who she is and what she enjoys in life. That could easily be making her switch off and avoid time alone together.

The question of sterilisation is one you need to resolve between you for your sex life to improve. She does have a right to take that stance.

"The question of sterilisation is one you need to resolve between you for your sex life to improve. She does have a right to take that stance." cuppa

Really? What about his body his choice (as in not wanting to undergo the snip with the potential complications)?

And how does she get to dictate that contraception can only be about him getting the op - no condoms allowed, remember? If he doesn't want to be sterilised (and why would he, given his marriage looks none too stable) she's not exactly leaving him much choice other than to go without, frankly dull sounding, sex is she?

And I guess you missed the bit where she's dictating other things about his life - e.g. that it would be "selfish" of him to take up his own hobbies. What's good for the gander's clearly not so good for the goose in this "relationship."

She doesn't sound like a "devoted" Mum to me. She sounds selfish and grasping and totally unprepared to make any changes or compromise for the sake of their marriage. And that's even allowing for only hearing one side of the story.

Given how much free time she has on her hands I'd be checking to see if she's meeting up with a male "friend" - some of her behaviour sounds like a classic case of engineering a split to make it the other person's fault.

To be honest, she sounds to me as if she doesn't really want to spend much time with the op, but is happy enough to go through life with her children, friends and work colleagues. I don't exactly blame her for that but she should be honest with the op and not keep him hanging on like this.

Also agree that one partner shouldn't be able to dictate what contraception is used - it must be agreed by both partners.

Absolutely the OP's body and choice regarding the snip. But the same goes for his OH when it comes to not wanting to risk an unplanned pregnancy.

She has carried their children and been through childbirth and postnatal recovery twice. If they've completed their family she has every right to say she doesn't want to continue having to use a form of contraception such as the pill indefinitely with any side effects she experiences. Not seeing condoms as a long term fail safe solution to contraception in a marriage/long term relationship makes sense to me.

Sterilisation for a woman means general surgery, much bigger op in hospital, risk of complications that carries, longer recovery time.

If the OP doesn't want more children with her but isn't ready to say no to the idea to more children with someone else then obviously that will have a big effect on her feelings regarding intimacy too!

I don't pretend to know their situation but the question of sterilisation is an emotional decision and it's difficult if there's disagreement. In the meantime there's only one fail safe way to prevent an unplanned pregnancy that would impact the physical wellbeing of her not the OP.

All contraception (except female sterilisation and just not doing it at all) comes with varying degrees of uncertainty - even the snip can fail - so in that respect you're correct.

However, I don't think that's why she's putting this particular barrier (pardon the pun) up - not when you factor in everything else she's doing.

I suspect, cuppa that were the OP a woman saying...

her sex life is non-existent and the only way it might start again is if she gets sterilised, he won't go to counselling, he won't make any changes, he won't allow her to pursue any hobbies, he's earning sweet FA and swanning off to see his mates all the time during the school day and he's not pulling his weight at home

...that your responses might be more along the lines of LTB than making excuses for the partner.

Just skim read the responses, but I think you're done, the pair of you. Your comments are getting more cross, and sometimes it's just time to call it quits.

You will be portrayed as the evil one, but if she has so many friends and interests, she will be fine. Be a good dad to your kids, and enjoy your life.

If you came on here asking for permission, I think you have it.

PaterPower, you seem to have already made up your mind that she's checked out. Very interesting seeing the responses from your (male) point of view...
Just like to add that as a sahp (and it's usually the woman) having given up a career to raise children, a pt job which fits in with school hours often earns you sweet FA, as you generally can't walk back into a well paid position.
I doubt any sahp can spend the majority of the time through the week swanning off to meet friends.... Until you run the house yourself you often do no see all it entails, with home/school/afterschool etc chores. As soon as the kids arrive home, it's a tip again.
A pp had some good observations about the wife having put her body through two pregnancies....totally agree with the point about OP and the snip. When the family is complete the decision not to have the snip could be seen as a uncertainty as to whether he wants to remain committed to this relationship (or leave the option open to have children with someone else).
OP, it doesn't sound like you can communicate anymore on any meaningful issue and resentment has built up as you are both busy with your lives. Can you go to counselling yourself to determine a way forward, if you still want to make it work?

i think you should leave.

i grew up as a teen with parents who didn't like each other/lead completely separate lives. it was really awful. when they finally separated it was such a relief.

she's checked out. she just wants u to leave so i'll be the baddie imo.

but it's not bad or selfish to make a decision that will make the situation better for everyone in the long term.

Poor you OP...

She's having a great old life and you're not allowedthe same?
I think with a part time job and kids in school she could use her spare time to have baths or do a little tidying as well as seeing friends.

When you love someone you want them to be happy..... she doesn't sound like she wants you to be happy. Honest chats needed I think. Be open about how you feel.
Sounds shit to be as it is and she doesn't sound like a good partner at all.

Paterpower his wife works part time, what makes you say she's earning 'sweet FA'? And does her contribution as the main carer not count for rather a lot? Op says she has plenty of friends from school who she sees in the day which presumably provides a good social life for their children too as they mix with plenty of other children. She is busy with activities during the week, not clear whether they are her own or the children's activities. Quite possibly her children's going on his criticism of her as too focused on them!

She sounds a very active Mother and sociable lady. Happy though not exactly houseproud. He doesn't say she doesn't do anything, clearly she does an awful lot for the children but doesn't keep the house as neat as he'd like. Not a reason to break up a family.

I said in my original post regarding contraception they should resolve it together, not that either should feel forced in to anything. But it is a big issue that does need resolving and she's as much right to take her stance on it as the Op has to take his. Their children are primary school age, not babies so presumably she either has been taking responsibility for contraception again for a number of years post children and is saying enough or understandably doesn't want to rely on condoms forever.

If a man is tested in the months after a vasectomy and given the all clear it is actually incredibly rare for it to reverse and even then fertility likely to be low. So an unplanned pregnancy very unlikely. Lots of the falling pregnant after the snip stories are where the man was never given the all clear in the first place. Different situation.

Man or woman, I'd never advise either to leave a loving family and non abusive marriage simply because they'd got a bit bored or were going through a difficult patch.

The Op is likely to see his children a lot less if he moves out of the family home and things will get tougher financially if they divorce.

However I do agree with other posters the Op sounds done. Has fallen out of love with his OH, wants the single life, a more adventurous sex life with other partners and to do his own thing. So as long as he is honest about that rather than being overly critical of her and continues to do right by his children fair enough. If him leaving would mean the house having to be sold and the children's lives turned upside down, particularly if they'd have to move to a different area, then I would see that as selfish of the Op.

We can only give you advice, and not your wife, so sorry if this comes across as focusing on what you could work on...

Your wife says she's happy, but a) what does she mean by happy ("comfortable enough not to change things" or "totally satisfied"), and b) what does she think about the fact that you are not? Sounds like she would rather ignore it and hope it goes away. Is that perhaps because she sees your unhappiness as criticism of her, personally, rather than as criticism of the situation you have both got into?

If so, I can see where she's coming from, as your messages don't just express sadness at the situation; you are also criticising her general attitude to family life. If she grew up in a family where all adults were happy to put the children first always, then it's not surprising if she expected and even looked forward to the same from your family. Where she "went wrong" was not in wanting that situation, it was in assuming that's what you wanted too. Rather than criticising her for her view of what makes a nice family life, it might be more constructive to show her that you respect her view, but are having problems with it because you don't share it.

This will be difficult, as she is criticising your viewpoint, too, calling you selfish. But maybe you can be the first to break out of this cycle of criticism and really try to learn to respect her attitude and accept it as just different?

In the end maybe you won't be able to find any middle ground, but both of you will feel a lot happier if you can understand that this is not because the other person's way of life is stupid. It's because you had different expectations of what family life would be like.

OP sorry if I missed this but if you suggest doing something for you while she's in the bath or relaxing of an evening (e.g. See a friend / play a sport / movie/drink etc) how does she react?

This resembles the relationship I had with the father of my children. He was and is a devoted dad. I simply didn't feature anymore. I tried a range of things to reinvigorate our relationship- nights out, lots of talking, talking to his family, a counsellor etc etc. In the end I arrived at a point of exhausted acceptance that he would not change. Once I reached this point I started to look at myself. I did everything I could to help myself in terms of low confidence and self esteem which resulted from years of being ignored. It's called emotional abuse. I swam lots and lost one stone in weight. One New Year's Day I drew a line in the sand and said 'no more' to pretending we have a relationship. We continued to leave together for 8 months but then I met someone. We sold our house and split everything 50:50. My children live with me and my partner in a loving, caring and calm environment. My children now know what a loving relationship looks like and how adults should respect and cherish one another as this helps us to get through life. My children see their Dad every week and alternate weekends. It's not ideal but my life is unrecognisable. My children are happy and my children's dad is also living with someone who appears to make him happy. It's a no brainer in the end. I waited until my children were a bit older, 8 and 10, before we properly split up.

Is she studying during the week? And what does she do whilst DC do their homework? Sorry ppl but SAHM to teens is not hard work certainly not to keep house tidy. Do DC have friends round ? Are they embarrassed at state of house?

Can you encourage DC to want to do a hobby or interest as a family so you all have fun together? She can't say you're being selfish as it's with them and you may be able to engage together also. Activity day out also perhaps? I'm sure they'd love it.

She's told you to leave ... can't remember exact words but 'find your perfect woman' ... I'd work out the finances if you separated and show her how it would be. Explain that you'd cut your hours as you'd want 50/50 DC.

Does sound as if she's instigating loveless marriage, backed up by not wanting and walking out of counselling. Perhaps she does have OM as suggested?

Sorry - I know it's been said already: Any couple together 20 years with two children, where the man has not had the snip means the wife has taken the brunt of the family planning impact on her body. In my humble opinion, after 20 years any woman is entitled to say NO MORE, if you want regular safe sex, then get the flipping snip, I have done enough.

I know men want choices, but what's the woman's choice, be the contraception door mat for all of her reproductive years.....she has already pulled her weight in that regard.

Do men in their 40s (father of two existing children) really foresee themselves or want to have another baby with someone else when they are hitting their 50s or later. Is that choice really so valuable that it outweighs a woman's choice for all of her reproductive life? That is male entitlement right there.

I think a lots of marriages go through phases like this and it does not have to be the end.

Instead of coming at it form YOUR point of view and telling (accusing) your wife how it makes YOU feel, why not make it about her?

Start small, and say you'd love to take her out for dinner as a treat for both of you, and organise the whole thing.

Start doing a hobby or activity you like once a week, and say you'll cancel if something comes up (kids sick, wife sick, other things...but it won't be often) and , more importantly, encourage her to do something for herself as well.

As to sex, being a sulk will get you nowhere, don't see it as something YOU want or need or deserve, see it as a way for the two of you to get back on track Start with saying "I miss you" and a hug, without any further expectations.

ALL couples deal with this kind of shit, honest, and there is a way out (And up) if both put a bit of effort in (I hope your wife gets on board too!)

OP, slightly to my embarrassment, I think I was somewhat like your wife before I initiated a separation in terms of my feelings towards my husband (although I was very happy for him to live as fully as possible and didn't take the piss in terms of housework, etc.).

I was actually quite happy with everything else in my life, my marriage wasn't making me miserable or anything, but I simply didn't love my husband anymore and knew that the differences between us were fundamental and no amounts of date nights or even changes on either of our parts would make a difference. I could, as your wife seems to want to do, have plodded along living parallel lives, it would certainly have been the easy option. But I felt that in the first instance, he deserved far more than I had to give and that I was tired of living a lie essentially. But it has been a very difficult process and I've given up so much and hurt him and my children very much; I suppose what I'm saying is that in your case, your wife is prepared to continue in a way I wasn't. It will be up to you to pull the plug, I used to hope my husband would do so which was very cowardly of me. A combination of factors finally pushed me to make the move which I still can't decide was very brave or very foolish

Earning "sweet FA" because she's doing 7 hours a week - it would have to be something akin to a Company Director level role for it to be bringing anything much in. I agree that it can be difficult to get back on to the career ladder, but less than one full day a week's not exactly trying to jump back on that particular horse, is it?!

He says he's tried to ask her to do things as a couple - they were all rebuffed - she's prepared to sit in the bath for three hours rather than do something with him. Conversely she won't allow him a hobby as that would be "selfish" of him. There's not much sex and, when there is, it sounds like it's a duty f#ck. She won't do counselling and she's perfectly happy for him to sod off and find someone else.

And all of THAT is why I (and lots of the women posting here, btw) have made my mind up that she's checked out! I'd be saying exactly the same were the sexes reversed - why are you so determined to find excuses for her?

This is over OP. I know the feeling well from first hand experience. I was 'that wife '.. I lead my dear ex husband a terrible few years before he finally reached the end of his tether and given the time again I wish I had been honest with him.
We married fairly quickly after meeting. I was desperate for children and looking back , I think I chose him as a 'father' rather than a long term mate.. I recognise that now but not at the time.
Sadly infertility marred our early years but then when the miracle of children happened not once but three times, I was completely fulfilled from an emotional point of view and no longer 'needed' or wanted that emotional/sexual connection to my then DH.
I avoided sex at all costs. Didn't have anything to talk about with him that didn't involve dcs. I didn't want time as a couple just as a family. Didn't want to split up as that didn't fit with my 'perfect family' view.

Long story short- he left. We divorced. There was a brief period of upset but I was lucky enough that we were able to remain mostly civilised.
In recent years we have even been able to discuss what happened. I know it's fashionable to say 'it was both our faults ' but it really wasn't . He married me wanting a wife and mother to his children. I just wanted a father for mine and wasn't really interested in the husband but once I had what I wanted . (The kids)
Our relationship is now fantastic. Greatly improved since we have both remarried and are genuinely concerned that our partners happiness is as important as our children's. We were just married to the wrong people.
Move out OP. Find a lawyer who will help you get 50/50 child residency. Split your assets in half and your stbex-w will suddenly discover that a 7/70 hr work split is not the way life works.