City girl dates rural boy - ethical issues bothering me, thoughts?

[Kefalonia1]

I have seeing my boyfriend for 4 months and have never dated a guy from a rural place before. He grew up on a farm so I feel is quite desensitised to the general killing of animals - he does eat a lot of meat and that's fine, as I'm not veggie but do like to balance things out with veggie meals which he says he is really open to.

Anyway, the issue. Up until now I have seen him as an animal lover - seen him interacting with animals on the farm, peoples pets etc. He gave me an Attenborough DVD to borrow and he gets quite gooey over the animals.

A few days ago he said something that shocked me - basically that foxes are 'vermin' citing chickens they steal from farms etc. I love foxes and grew up in a family that is fond of our urban foxes (I know this issue is not widely shared). Although he said he disagrees with the cruelty of fox hunting with dogs etc. Then we were talking about people who wear fur and he said it didn't really bother him/he hadn't thought about it much before. Well it bothered me because I would never wear fur and find it unethical to do so - electrocuting live animals and then slaying them alive anyone?

In the end my boyfriend, who hates conflict (and I dislike it too until/if I feel passionately about something) said we should just 'avoid' the topic. But to me I feel he is condoning cruelty to animals? And in another way I am trying to see how his point of view might differ to mine because of his upbringing?

But yeah, I haven't introduced him to my family yet and if he said any of that stuff to them that would be it I think. I am meant to be having a nice dinner with him tomorrow but this is still really bothering me..what are your thoughts?

foxes are just trying to survive like every other living thing on the planet (IE. they are not born to be malicious)
Yes, they are. Foxes will kill every chicken in a run, not just the ones they wasnt to eat, and leave them lying there.

But it's the fact he's not bothered about other animals that are hunted for fur, I'm thinking mink etc and many of them are horribly tortured.

That's ironic, OP! Mink are vicious killers. They will also kill fish etc they won't want to eat, just for fun. Yet you want to protect them? They're an invasive species in the UK and are detrimental to native species. I'd happily see them all eradicated from the UK.

So you're concerned about fluffy foxes but not about the welfare of the animals that die for you to eat them? Let's face it - you're reacting to animals based on their cuteness. That's not an educated or valid POV.

Perhaps he'll dump you first for being wet about it and this whole thing will be over before its started. I wonder if he criticises you behind your back as much?

Mink are awful! I'd shoot them myself if they were prevalent here.

I agree with your bf about foxes being vermin, city foxes are no less vicious than country foxes and blaming the farmer for his cow and calf being tortured is 😮 shocking ! And incredibly naive! Do you honestly think farmers/ chicken owners don't try to protect their animals? Foxes are conniving and will destroy fencing/ dig to gain access to what they want. I hope you won't blame this Mother for not protecting her baby enough!

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fox-attacks-baby-in-london-newborns-1678933

Fwiw I am a city girl, married to a country boy, I had naive thoughts on many subjects, my husband opened my eyes and I considered a new side to arguments that I hadn't heard before. We still disagree on several subjects, but we have both considered each others opinions, and on some subjects my husband has agreed with me.

I actually think if you don't want to look like a hypocrite, you should go Vegan. Your bf has actually been very restrained and obviously likes you. Although if you are seriously considering dumping him because he doesn't share your opinions then he can frankly do better!

Give the OP a break! She grew up in an urban environment and has never been exposed to this sort of thing before. Unless you know people who are rural dwellers how would you know?

OP. If you like and trust him, enjoy learning about a new way of life. Some bits you'll find yuk, some will challenge and others will amaze you. Isnt that what life is about? New experiences.

Oh gosh. Just seen the OP's 01:22 post.

You really are quite clueless. Entertaining though you would be for this chap's family, I do wonder if there is a future here...

It may be that you are very young, like 17 or something, in which case much of what you have written is forgiven, and the whole thing might be a steep learning curve.

Foxes are actually quite vicious, a fox in a hen house will kill every single chicken.

They have also bitten babies
www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/feb/09/fox-bites-baby-finger

I would not get too sentimental about foxes, why would cute animals be morally superior than those who you consume.

What a bloody hypocrite.

Funnily enough I have been eating more butcher's meat since meeting the boyfriend

fnarr
Seriously, where do you think butchers' meat comes from!?

Two thoughts:

• life is too short to share it with someone whose values aren't really in sync with yours.

BUT

• as a non-vegetarian yourself, you're not being entirely consistent here!

AND

• all of us develop our values over time, and people do change when they are exposed to other ways of being. That's the wonderful thing about being an open person who is able to reflect critically on themselves. It may be that your own views, or his, alter in the course of your relationship. DH became a vegetarian in his late 30s after we got together - not a case of me 'converting' him because he's changed my views in many, many ways too. More just the way relationships mould and change us.

Foxes are predators and will on instinct grab anything moving that they can catch. They are not 'malicious' in catching every hen in a run, they find trapped hens and pounce. Though obviously catching things is part of what they do, like cats pouncing and catching. You can't bestow it with a value judgement.

I think foxes are an urban nuisance and are vermin because they feed on human detritus, discarded chicken in litter, etc. There are way too many, they look scrawny, mangey, (many have bald tails and mange patches) and I wonder about their role in the advent of ticks in S London gardens. The noise, shit everywhere, and fox shit is disgusting. Why ban supervised dogs from play areas when the place is running with diseased foxes shitting everywhere?

I don't want to see foxes suffer or be cruelly treated but they are a problem, same as rats. Just bigger and (arguably) 'cuter'.

I never understand the people who will happily tell you 'I care about the lickle animals so I only eat meat 1-2 times a week' Why not just not eat meat?

When i met dh his mum and dad had chickens. If a fox got them rhey would chew the head off and usually left the body.

I actually dont see the big deal. He view foxes as vermin, you dont. I dont like cats, some people do. Its not the be all and end all of any relationship.

He didnt say he doesnt care about people wearing fur. Just that he hasbt reall6 thought about it yet.

Out of the two of you he sounds more switched on. I know some one who is vegan but eats no local food while telling people about the damage their food habits have on the environment. She hates being challenged about how far her food travels (and the damage that causes) because she cant be arsed to go to local places that sell local veg.

We live rurally and loads of farmers sell stuff from their homes. But what she does is up to her but she is definitely not morally superior.

You remind me of her.

But Urban Foxes ARE vermin... that shit on my doorstop, rip open rubbish bags, killed my chicken and are generally disgusting & dirty. I would shoot them if I had a gun... But I adore my dogs and my cat and most other animals an could not ever be cruel to an animal... I don't think shooting an urban fox ( if i were a good shot) is cruel. I think its sensible

OP you really do come across as daft. Foxes, despite your experience, are wild animals. They hunt and kill.

And how exactly do you propose livestock be made secure against them? I'm sure you'd make a lot of money if you've figured it out.

Ok - firstly you are not a vegetarian, I imagine you wear leather shoes? If so, then although it's not fur, you can not be certain how ethically the animals are also killed for your consumption are treated- so I don't think it's that different to be honest. Maybe you choose better supermarket choices but I doubt every pair of shoe has traceability.

Secondly I think it's pretty progressive for a farming type to thing that fox hunting is cruel so that is a massive plus. And yes as a farmer he will see them as vermin but he's against cruelly hunting them to their death which is good.

I think before you judge him you should dissect your relationship with meat and leather. Just my opinion.

I think we can safely say that OP is misinformed, immature and has a very 'fluffy and cute' view of how the world should be. Wake up and smell the coffee OP - I hope this thread has been an education for you. And leave the poor guy to find a nice partner who isn't going to slate him and his educated views on an online forum.

Even part time vegetarian is a stretch. Fair enough if she'd said "I'll eat meat when I'm a guest to avoid a fuss", that's part time vegetarianism but understandable. 2-3 times a bloody week!!

Ok - admittedly not read the entire thread but got to the part where you said about it being the farmer's responsibility to secure their animals and have seen red. Have been a chicken keeper for years in a semi rural area - no matter what you do, and how secure you think you've got your livestock - foxes can and will find a way in. They are cunning fuckers. It'll be the one night the electric fence fails, or unexpected snowfall that creates a gap in the roof of the run, or the fox working out it can leap from the trampoline into the run etcetc and BOOM! You wake up to 25 chickens you've loved and cared for - headless, bloodbath, feathers everywhere, dead. It's really shitty. And imagine if that was your livelihood! I still love catching a glimpse of a fox running across a field or down a lane, but it does change your view of them. They are wild predators. As long as he's not happily trotting off with the hunt, I genuinely can't see a problem. You seem to be looking for problems where there are none - are you sure you're happy in this relationship?

"user1478860582

Give the OP a break! She grew up in an urban environment and has never been exposed to this sort of thing before. Unless you know people who are rural dwellers how would you know?"

Thank you! To all the people who posted telling me that I should leave my boyfriend, are you sure you're happy or some other unhelpful comment, thanks but no thanks. I knew some things would probably come up due to our upbringings.

To those that posted helpful links, I will read them later. I may be naive, but I have come here open to alternative viewpoints and filling in my knowledge gaps! I come from a political family where some members are also big on animal rights (some probably more informed than others). While I am open minded, it may take the ones set in their ways a bit more time to loosen up a bit, if they ever do. That is all, there's nothing wrong with wanting your family to like and get along with your partner!

ps. tricornel I ASKED if it was the farmer's responsiblity - it was an opportunity for education, not having a go.

I am a farmer. My whole family are farmers. You are daft as lights and a complete hypocrite. You have no idea, clearly, about anything remotely related to farming (it baffles me that you can be so naive and say you have farming in your family )
You are looking for problems and you don't respect him at all. Let him go and find someone better suited to you.

I'm the biggest townie that ever towned (and a vegetarian/former vegan), and I think you are way overthinking this. You really think your relationship is going to founder because he accurately describes foxes as "vermin" and hasn't thought much about the fur trade, rather than because of the many more important practical and ethical issues about marrying into a farming family PPs have highlighted?

Honestly, if it's this important to you that your life partner share your (rather inconsistent) perspective on these things then you need to find yourself another urban hipster. If not, then you need to buckle up, dive into his world and do some slaughtering yourself, and see if you still feel your ethical position holds.

You sound very naive and I'm as city dwellery as they come. But you've only been together 4 months - it shouldn't be this difficult. If you can't reconcile yourself to his ideas and thoughts about something that he actually knows about then move on, stop agonising and overthinking it. Are you really never going to date or God forbid introduce anyone to your family who has a different viewpoint to you? - it's a bit arrogant and dull tbh

Lifelong townie here, but one with a working brain. Foxes are beautiful but of course they're vermin.

OP, you're not much of a deep thinker, try harder.

A vegetarian friend of mine is now reconsidering her vegetarian status. She has finally come to terms with the fact that animals die in the farming of vegetable crops. Including the organic ones. Not eating animals doesn't mean that none are killed for the benefit of the food that you eat.

The farmer boy sounds fine to me.

Mink are vicious killers

They even made this the plot of a Friends episode.