City girl dates rural boy - ethical issues bothering me, thoughts?

[Kefalonia1]

I have seeing my boyfriend for 4 months and have never dated a guy from a rural place before. He grew up on a farm so I feel is quite desensitised to the general killing of animals - he does eat a lot of meat and that's fine, as I'm not veggie but do like to balance things out with veggie meals which he says he is really open to.

Anyway, the issue. Up until now I have seen him as an animal lover - seen him interacting with animals on the farm, peoples pets etc. He gave me an Attenborough DVD to borrow and he gets quite gooey over the animals.

A few days ago he said something that shocked me - basically that foxes are 'vermin' citing chickens they steal from farms etc. I love foxes and grew up in a family that is fond of our urban foxes (I know this issue is not widely shared). Although he said he disagrees with the cruelty of fox hunting with dogs etc. Then we were talking about people who wear fur and he said it didn't really bother him/he hadn't thought about it much before. Well it bothered me because I would never wear fur and find it unethical to do so - electrocuting live animals and then slaying them alive anyone?

In the end my boyfriend, who hates conflict (and I dislike it too until/if I feel passionately about something) said we should just 'avoid' the topic. But to me I feel he is condoning cruelty to animals? And in another way I am trying to see how his point of view might differ to mine because of his upbringing?

But yeah, I haven't introduced him to my family yet and if he said any of that stuff to them that would be it I think. I am meant to be having a nice dinner with him tomorrow but this is still really bothering me..what are your thoughts?

I think you need to grow up a bit, selecting a future husband to ensure they have the same beliefs as you on everything is just a way of saying you'll never settle down!
Foxes are beautiful animals but they are vermin,I've lived in the country and city, in the country foxes used to obliterate coups full of hens and eat only one. I remember a nest of birds/chicks being ripped to pieces by a fox. My friend had ducks, reared by hand, an urban fox killed them all too - foxes are lovely to look at but vermin!

Re the fur trade, he's just not thought about it - my husband's mum has furs - it bothers me a lot, not sure if his views, I know she loves her fur - each to their own, but you can't force your views onto others.

He may well be having the same doubts about you after your conversation, it works both ways! I've had many friends decide its not worth the hassle of having a girlfriend/boyfriend who says silly uninformed things about british farming and countryside practices. He's probably not going to be overly keen on you getting upset about the cuddly foxes infront of his family and friends either!

Its not nice having to constantly defend your way of life against people who have a complete disconnect about food production and believe everything they read on the internet about farming and wildlife

Foxes are beautiful creatures but they are vermin and need controlling, not just to protect farming practices but also to redress the balance in a human created ecosystem landscape where they no longer have any predators/competition.

There was a good bit on countryfile last week similarly discussing the need to control the otter population...

Also, OP, of course the foxes are only doing what comes naturally to them, but that goes for all animals. Do you kill spiders, flies, mosquitos etc? What makes their life less meaningful than a mammal's? They're all just doing what comes naturally to them, aren't they?

Be careful. There's nothing more frustrating than a hypocrite, and you've shown several times already in this thread that you are a hypocrite.

I don't really understand why foxes and more special and precious than rats, OP?

Have you ever looked up factory farming? Or seen how pigs are raised for slaughter?

A couple of mangy foxes being shot by a farmer are neither here nor there really. They aren't fluffy friendly creatures, they're vermin. Think as someone else said you need to learn a lot more about farming before you get properly involved with this bloke

But I have doubts about trying to save every endangered animal just because unless our involvement as humans have directly lead to their circumstance.

Oh dear, OP, you're a bit muddled. The mink in the UK are a non-native species introduced by humans that are having an awful impact on or wildlife.

No one is suggesting farming them or inhumane modes of killing them. But they do need to be culled nonetheless.

And sometimes so do foxes. Or do chickens and ducks dying in agony matter less than foxes being shot humanely?

And of course, it is human action (urbanisation in particular) that has seen an upswing in fox numbers.

By the way, the reason they're not classified as vermin by the government is that councils have a legal duty to control vermin.

Have you ever seen the slaughter of animals for food or other products?

I've been killing animals since I was a child with my mum and family...and yes killing.

I never get the hypocrisy with free range etc. It still dies...and its still not a pleasant experience for the animal, regardless of the methods used.

The problem in society is people like you who have absolutely no idea where your meat/food is coming from... but stick a "free range" label on and you feel morally superior. It may not even be free range.

Have you any idea the cost to a farmer when he loses animals?

You wear leather shoes...but don't wear fur... not all the animals killed for fur are then not used... people eat them too. and not all leather is derived from cows used for meat.

Aw, your urban ideals are cute but v uninformed..

The free range hens that you proudly proclaim provide your eggs are precisely the ones that get decimated by 1 fox. Your answer, lock them all back up again not that free range hens have anywhere close to the degree of space per gen I think is needed in the first place

If you're going to accept the DEFRA technical classification for foxes, you'll be accepting their standards for farming then?

I'm with you, in that I don't agree with death by dogs but I do agree they need controlling. I'd prefer that to be done by lamping though.

I'm a towny myself but spend a lot of time in the countryside and understand it's not just farming that suffers by fox, it's the wildlife too.

Unless you are raising and slaughtering your own meat how are you and your beliefs better than his? Put your mouth where your ethics are.

He doesn't raise animals for fur, grow up and leave him alone. Such ridiculous hypothetical badgering will get you nowhere.

Are you even old enough to have a boyfriend? What ill informed nonsense and hypocrisy.
How can being part-time meat eater support your ethical stance? Those poor cows that are bred specifically for meat would not feature in our country landscape if we all went vegetarian.
What about poor fluffy little chicks who are ripped to shreds for the fun of naughty Mr Fox? Foxes get in everywhere and kill whole coups. It's not about nasty farmer being too lazy to shut the hen house door.
What about culling of grey squirrels- sweet little Nutkins of fur- is it right or wrong to protect native red squirrels?
Is road kill venison OK? Should we stop nasty town drivers coming on to our rural roads because they frequently kill our beautiful indigenous deer with their ignorant love of speed on country lanes?
Dim townies (not all townies are dim BTW). are completely ignorant of rural ways and should stick to shopping for nail polish in Primark. Do the lad a favour and get rid of him.

The day an urban fox gets at your children's carefully protected rabbits and tears them all apart may be the day you decide that maybe they aren't that great. I'm definitely a townie, I wholly disagree with hunting, but I'm 100% in favour of controlling foxes. How do you feel about rats, OP?

How do you feel about rats?

Would you lay down traps / poison if you had rats?

I'm a townie who has lived in the country - you're coming across as a bigot. I quite liked foxes and agree with the definition of hunt being the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable. But I also listened when my neighbours explained to me what foxes do and why they are vermin who need to be controlled. So I'm fine with foxes being killed, just as humanely as can be managed.

I've also seen what mink do to wildlife and again have no problem with them being killed humanely.

Life isnt black and white and sounds like you need to grow up before you lose a good boyfriend.

Frankly OP you sound really uninformed and quite naive

I think foxes are lovely creatures but also know how ruthless they are when they kill. My friends have lost chickens and my rabbits where killed and not eaten by them. I am against fox hunting but have nothing against them being shot to save countless other animals from a very painful death.

Just so you know i also keep rats which most think are vermin as do i, even though i love my pets i can tell the difference between the two and i have no problem with rats being killed either.

You do come across as a little precious. What would you do if one of your hypothetical child was attacked by a fox
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21399709
www.standard.co.uk/news/london/fox-attacks-man-woman-and-cat-at-their-home-in-south-london-8699892.html

there are quite a few reports of urban foxes attacking domestic pets and people. I imagine if such a thing happened to your future baby you'd be screaming at your boyfriend to grab his rifle and shoot the vermin.

Try living a rural life for a while before passing judgement on the actions of farmers protecting their livestock (and I don't support hunting foxes with dogs).

Add message | Report | Message poster | Kefalonia1 Mon 23-Jan-17 01:22:27
Seeingadistance - Can I ask out of curiousity: how is it possible for a fox to simply grab hold of cows that are giving birth and/or snatch chickens from a coup? Is it not up to the farmer to safely secure all the animals?

Oh.my.god.

Yes, of course every farmer should have every sheep and chicken padlocked in a metal coffin and never let them out. God forbid the sheep or chicken might want to wander round a field. You're quite right they mustn't be allowed because they need to be protected from foxes. Never let the chickens, etc see daylight....they don't need it!

Foxes can go for newborn lambs in a field. They can jump high fences, they can dig under even higher fences, they've been seen undoing latches on coop doors. Yes you can secure the coop with a bolt but the fox will still come during daylight hours and get them when they're not in the coop.

I'm a country girl born and bred though I've lived in a city for twenty years. You are sounding very silly op. I suggest you leave this lovely man for a woman who understands him. He's a person, not a rural exhibit for your family to have a giggle over how 'ill informed' he is. Plus there's clearly no way you could hack rural living.

You sound idealistic. He sounds practical!

My partner is pro-fox hunting and I am anti. She's a townie, I'm a country bumpkin. We've been together 13 years and married for 10. There are lots of things we disagree on, thankfully. I don't want to be with my clone.

You really, really need to do some research. Foxes are beautiful animals, yes. But they are smart, vicious and most certainly vermin. As has already been pointed out to you- foxes will kill for fun. They don't just kill the one chicken or lamb they need for food, they will kill all the chickens for the sheer fun of it. It's all very well for you to stand around whittering about cute urban foxes when you aren't the person stuffing bits of your chickens into bin bags after the fox has killed them all, just for the hell of it.

It's not that you have different views that's the issue, it's that you have a very blinkered one.

Yes ringlingsisters there was a baby pulled from its cot in Hackney a few years ago... quite terrible to imagine.
I also remember as a child being so so so distressed that our lovely ducks were all killed pointlessly by a fox in a killing frenzy.

Unless you are raising and slaughtering your own meat how are you and your beliefs better than his? Put your mouth where your ethics are.

Absolutely. Sorry OP but your attitude is what I can Eco-tistic. Telling everyone else they need to have ethics but not getting your hands dirty yourself. In my opinion, if you aren't prepared to kill your own meat, then you really should not be eating it.