City girl dates rural boy - ethical issues bothering me, thoughts?

[Kefalonia1]

I have seeing my boyfriend for 4 months and have never dated a guy from a rural place before. He grew up on a farm so I feel is quite desensitised to the general killing of animals - he does eat a lot of meat and that's fine, as I'm not veggie but do like to balance things out with veggie meals which he says he is really open to.

Anyway, the issue. Up until now I have seen him as an animal lover - seen him interacting with animals on the farm, peoples pets etc. He gave me an Attenborough DVD to borrow and he gets quite gooey over the animals.

A few days ago he said something that shocked me - basically that foxes are 'vermin' citing chickens they steal from farms etc. I love foxes and grew up in a family that is fond of our urban foxes (I know this issue is not widely shared). Although he said he disagrees with the cruelty of fox hunting with dogs etc. Then we were talking about people who wear fur and he said it didn't really bother him/he hadn't thought about it much before. Well it bothered me because I would never wear fur and find it unethical to do so - electrocuting live animals and then slaying them alive anyone?

In the end my boyfriend, who hates conflict (and I dislike it too until/if I feel passionately about something) said we should just 'avoid' the topic. But to me I feel he is condoning cruelty to animals? And in another way I am trying to see how his point of view might differ to mine because of his upbringing?

But yeah, I haven't introduced him to my family yet and if he said any of that stuff to them that would be it I think. I am meant to be having a nice dinner with him tomorrow but this is still really bothering me..what are your thoughts?

Foxes are smart animals - they can get into hen houses and chicken coops. Yes, people take measures to make sure they are as secure as possible, but nothing is perfect and foxes can and will get in if they can. When they get in amongst hens they go on a killing frenzy - they don't just take one hen away and eat it.

My friend works a small family farm - the cows are outside at grass, and generally calve on their own without difficulty. What happened last year was unusual and unexpected - there are a lot more foxes than there used to be. He can try to bring the cows in to calve, but he can't accurately predict when that will be so some will always calve in the field.

Saying that foxes are vermin isn't some moral judgement about foxes or to say that they are malicious. It is simply a fact of life that they will kill and injure other animals when they get the chance.

My elderly cat was killed and eaten by a fox a couple of years ago, in my garden at night. I don't hate foxes because of that, but it was very distressing. I searched for my cat all day, and found her tail and some of her guts in a corner of my garden. I was very upset about it, as you can imagine - it was horrible. But foxes do what foxes do. That's one reality of rural life.

Foxes will kill every hen in a coop whether they take them for food or not. Have you seen one when a fox gets in?

Don't forget that people want Happy Hens. Foxes don't tend to kill battery hens.
Like I say it's a disconnect.
Before anyone says it, yes veganism would be better but my allergies (medically diagnosed) restrict my diet horribly so vegetarian is my realistic best.

All this is worth it, because you'll be able to say 'at the weekend I'm going to our place in the country' being able to say that is like gold dust.

Kef: I think that if your BF and you have children, and he refers to foxes as vermin in front of them, you can just contradict him.

Our children know that their father and I have different opinions about certain issues, and we are comfortable respectfully disagreeing in front of them.

I do understand your quandary, though, and I really did think hard about the differences between my husband and I when we were dating. Love won out, and it has gone well for us. (Btw, he was not bothered by our differences at all, interesting.)

Forgot to add - I understand his "foxes are vermin" mentality. We have had, not a fox, but a marten, get into our hen house (well, poultry-house) when we were sure it was pretty much predator proofed since our own jack russell terrier couldn't get in, despite his best efforts. It had the same frenzied blood lust that foxes display in that scenario and killed (and left) dead ducks, guinea fowl and chickens...along with one larger Rouen drake that we had to dispatch ourselves because he was mortally wounded, but not dead.

I love foxes, because they've never personally impacted me in that same way, but I would definitely struggle to think fondly of a marten now

Pretty much as he's said - I would never condone cruel, drawn-out hunting practices, but I can understand why a farmer wouldn't want them on their property, and might resort to shooting them if they were spotted "casing the joint"...

We wear fur. We hunt our own meat, I can't stand wasting anything of the animal we kill so we use the fur.

We have wolves bears and coyotes who hunt us our dogs and chickens. 99% of the time they leave us alone, but if we need to kill them we will, and we will not waste them.

lazydog - well I solely use free range eggs. Funnily enough I have been eating more butcher's meat since meeting the boyfriend

I'm sorry Garden Mink, but several investigations have found the inhumane torture that minks have suffered, depending on your definition of it (are you ok with skinning alive?). In any case I agree with working to save endangered animals that are important for the eco system. But I have doubts about trying to save every endangered animal just because unless our involvement as humans have directly lead to their circumstance. I know people would disagree with me there.

Seeingadistance - thank you for your thoughtful response! In my case my kitten played with a young fox cub like it was a puppy until they both grew up. Now she is 13 and seems to live in general harmony with the local fox. But it is good to hear alternative experiences.

It's all about perspective.

You think foxes are lovely because they were a little glimpse of the wild in an urban environment.

Think for a moment how you would feel about them if they'd killed or threatened your beloved pet cat or dog?

Think how much worse a farmer who depends upon his animals for his livelihood feels when they are slaughtered by a fox?

Foxes do threaten farm animals even though they may not be a pest to you in a cosy suburban environment.

What do you think farmers should do to control this threat to their animals?

Farming is hard, hard work. Farmers are up close and personal with the realities of life and death in their daily lives.

Animals die. Sometimes because we kill them to eat. Sometimes from disease. Sometimes from other animals.

Be practical, how often do you think urban foxes die of old age?

When something, anything, directly threatens your livelihood by destroying assets to your business then you would do anything you could to stop that happening wouldnt you?

Well that is what he is doing.

I'm most surprised at this bit : " I haven't introduced him to my family yet and if he said any of that stuff to them that would be it I think. "

Why do the opinions of your family seemingly matter more than your own opinion of him? You are an adult and you make the decisions about your own relationship, not your family.

I think there are dictionary definitions of vermin and legal ones. Hence the defra statement.

(Rural?) Foxes are a pain in the arse when it comes to killing chickens and other damaging activities (have you ever heard a rabbit scream when a fox gets hold of it?). They can get in any where really.

However, its about how they are killed and if he is against hunting with dogs and instead thinks shooting them is better then he is closer to your position that you might think. There are ethical ways to keep fox populations under control.

You also need to consider where all of your meat comes from as well as leather. Chicken in takeaways or ready meals is likely to be from mass production lines. Any food with eggs in it will have come from caged hens. Leather, unless specifically branded from certain countries, may have come from cows killed in far less ethical standards than our abattoirs. And even our abattoirs can be shocking places where stunning doesn't happen (Kosher/Halal) or happen properly.

There is a huge difference between accepting that animals die and cruel ways of killing animals. I suspect as a farmer type your BF would probably fall in the latter category.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

FFS get over yourself.

(For foxes' sake, obvs. Arf!)

Even if you are a real poster, you've still got a lot to learn about (a) living in the country and (b) having a relationship.

Come back when all your free range chickens have been gobbled up by a fox in front of your kids or your crops (and therefore livelihood) have been ruined and tell us again what you think about it all.

I think you need to understand farming more than you do to contemplate a future with this man. And the best way to understand that is to talk to him about it and witness it for yourself. I imagine that you'll be living on the farm if you do end up having a family with him. These are the real things you should be considering, not your opinion on fluffy foxes.

Exactly what GardenGeek said.

Exh grew up on a farm and it is a completely different lifestyle and mindset which takes some getting used to if you are a townie like me. The politics of it is also a minefield eg housing, inheritance, gender roles which I found more difficult to adjust to than the treatment of animals.

I think you can understand each other if you are open-minded but what you say about him not expressing his views in front of your family makes me wonder if you could do this long term.

Do you really think it's just that easy? Farmers should just somehow 100% guaranteed protect their chickens/ducks etc from the foxes?

Foxes burrow underground to get under secure wire fences and access barns, where livestock is supposedly safely penned in. They ply open small holes in barns and sheds until they can just wriggle through.

Once they've gained access, they don't just kill and eat one animal, they kill THEM ALL. And you wonder why your boyfriend considers them vermin.

You're an urban girl so I get that you don't know these things. But instead of fighting against him, maybe you could ask. And yes, they're beautiful and amazing creatures, seeing the antics of the young foxes is cute. But they're also incredibly destructive and cunning.

If you'd woken up one day to discover all your chickens had been savagely murdered and you could imagine the terror and pain they felt, wouldn't you feel less love toward that fox and all of its kind?

You are not a vegetarian
In practice no one wears fur, except Aretha Franklin
He is not a member of the local hunt and diesny condone hunting foxes with dogs.
Dealbreaker? You could spend a long time looking for someone who agrees exactly with everything.

For a country dweller foxes are pretty verminous if they kill the birds you are breeding and believe me they do. The important thing is he doesn't believe in fox hunting which is animal cruelty but knows the numbers need controlling. There not cute fluffy bunnies I'm afraid.

I'm sure your bf would abhor the fur trade as much as you if he was fully aware of the cruelty involved. He just sounds as though he isn't aware of the issues rather than condone them. A farmer doesn't go into the business to inflict cruelty on animals so I just think it's ignorance on his part.

Honestly look beyond these very minor, unimportant issues at the person and his lifestyle. Far more important that you consider if you could live as he does or what you both want from the future. I would be far more worried if he was racist or mysoginist

You are just not that into him, or such a silly non-issue wouldn't bother you (and I am a vegetarian!). You don't need an excuse to chuck him - just do it. You should be in the honeymoon stage at only 4 months. clearly you aren't. So just let it go, no big dramz.

I have made an effort to cut my intake to eating meat only 2-3 times a week as much as possible for the past 1 1/2 years