How do you shut down a manipulative relative?

[CatsLoveCatkins]

I've just had yet another argument with my family, and I need to learn some coping strategies, fast.

My younger sister is nasty, manipulative and controlling. I've spent far too much time with her and our parents over Christmas, and today it just got too much.

We had a ridiculous petty argument, which was embarrassing (we were in company), and pointless - Forgive me for going into detail here, but I really need to get this out in black and white and for someone to please tell me I'm not going mad.

We went out shopping with my parents and friends and I had gone off on my own for a bit. We had agreed to give each other a call when one of us figured out where to meet for lunch. My sister rang me to say they were heading for a cafe - we'll call this Cafe A. I agreed, and headed off there.

Before I got there, she called me again and said they'd changed their minds and were going to look for somewhere else. I said that's fine, and said I was actually close to a place which looked nice and suggested we went there instead - we'll call it Cafe B. She agreed and we all met there for lunch.

During lunch I asked her what had made her change her mind about going to Cafe A. She said it was because I had suggested Cafe B.

I said no, that wasn't what happened, they had already decided not to go to Cafe A when she rang me, that is why she rang me - and it was only during that second phone conversation that I suggested Cafe B. She insisted that they only decided not to go to Cafe A because I had suggested Cafe B.

Despite me telling her that it was physically impossible, she wouldn't have it. I kept trying to ask why she had decided against Cafe A, and she insisted it was because I'd suggested Cafe B. She insisted that I had suggested Cafe B before she rang me (which is impossible). She then tried to imply that I was denying I'd suggested going to Cafe B at all - which of course I wasn't, I was just trying to point out that I'd only brought up Cafe B during the second phone call, which she made after deciding not to go to Cafe A. She said I was going mad, and she refused to understand what I was trying to say.

At this point I looked at our friends, and asked whether any of them understood what I was trying to say. Nobody said anything, and my parents told us both to shut up. My sister stuck her fingers in her ears going "la la la" and refused to discuss it any further (I should add at this point that we're both in our 40s, we're not children). When she went to the toilet, I asked my Mother whether she understood what I was trying to say, and she did - but wouldn't admit it in front of my sister.

I was so bloody angry and frustrated I was shaking. And I'm left arguing about a bloody phonecall and a cafe which is totally petty and pointless.....!!! But I couldn't let it lie because she was trying to make out I was going mad!!

She does this all the time - she will misunderstand / misrepresent something minor, and when I try to correct her version of events she will always somehow twist, deny and manipulate the conversation so that I end up arguing about something ridiculous and feeling like I'm going mad. She could argue black was white, then tell me I was mad for ever suggesting such a thing. My parents are terrified of standing up to her and just allow her to manipulate us all. And I've slowly come to realize she has done this all our lives.

How do I deal with it? The obvious answer is to stay the hell away from them, which I intend to - but when I can't avoid being in their company, how do I shut down this sort of manipulative behaviour?? How do I control my emotions so that I don't go to pieces the next time she does this??

Another method could be to always just turn to someone else and ask a different question. So, DSis comes out with complete bullshit, you give minimal response, then turn to DDad/niece/anyone, and say "got any plans for the weekend?' or talk about the weather/news etc.

Make it something bland and impersonal. It changes the conversation and the focus away from her, and the only way she can grab them back would make her look like the crazy one.

Just deflect, deflect, deflect. All the time.

You say that you want your kids and hers to interact, but be careful - they will learn from her and your kids will be their perfect guinea pigs when they want to try out her methods for themselves.

OP I'm glad you sound more positive about dealing with your DSis. As to the holiday, please tell us you're not going! You have said

the 'if you say so' thing is [that it's] something that she and my parents have always used on me as a passive aggressive tool

You could suggest a big family meal together instead of a holiday if needs must. If you need to explain why no to the holiday, keep it simple: smile and say "DSis and I wind each other up and I don't think either of us would enjoy it!". You don't have to say anything negative about her, just that you have a personality clash. Sounds like they couldn't argue with this.

I am not saying this is the case, just suggesting a way to decline without opening up a big conversation about who's to blame (you know the answer already and your parents won't admit it even if they secretly agree). If your DF gives you grief tell him you're really sorry but you can't do it and you feel awful for letting him down but hope he understands that it's because of how uncomfortable you feel around DSis.

I have found "i disagree/we clearly have a different memory of what happened but I love and respect you/my parents/my children/current event to much to argue with you on this" works a treat

Same statement on repeat or you can go onto 'we will have to agree to disagree'

It's an awful one because it gives you the last word but shuts down the argument so utterly that if she continues (and probably she will for a few times because she is not used to using) she really shows herself up.

Sometimes I just use silence. You can't argue with silence. You aren't stopping them talk either you just refuse to engage in the conversation.

Now apparently there are topics we are just not allowed to discuss. I like it that way, we were getting on much better

I do think it's worth remembering though that different people have different perspectives on things. And people often rewrite their personal narrative in the head based on what happens after without realising they have done so.

You only have to read any studies on eyewitness accounts to know the issues there are with memory.

You might be right you might be wrong arguing your version of events is only ever going to make you look nuts though cos chances are no one will remember it exactly the same way as you, nobody will have experience it from the same perspective as you and no one will be as invested in your version of events as you.

That includes your parents who might not give two shit's who's right, but are just sick to death of their kids fighting and will therefore go along with whatever perspective ends the argument quicker.

They will never support you it doesn't allign with their perceived interests to do so.

The problem is that because I felt I was being wronged, I was the one who went on and on. She did try and shut down the conversation, but I carried it on because her version of events made no sense and I was trying to have my question answered and get my true version across. So I was the one who ended up looking crazy and making a fool of myself. She even took great delight in pulling a crazy face at me and telling me I was mad.

You might be right you might be wrong arguing your version of events is only ever going to make you look nuts though cos chances are no one will remember it exactly the same way as you, nobody will have experience it from the same perspective as you and no one will be as invested in your version of events as you.

That includes your parents who might not give two shit's who's right, but are just sick to death of their kids fighting and will therefore go along with whatever perspective ends the argument quicker.

Absolutely. That's what happened. No one cared that the version of events that she was presenting was physically impossible - because it was a trivial and inconsequential subject. But it infuriated me because by presenting her impossible timeline of events, she made out that my (true) version was wrong and I was therefore mad.

And when my sister went to the toilet and I asked DM whether she had understood my question, she said she did but it didn't matter and asked me to stop making a fuss. So she would rather watch me flail around being made to look mad than step in and go "No, Catkins is right, what she's asking is this...."

I've been practicing my coping strategies. Some great advice on this thread.

Also worth bearing in mind if you carry on defending your point you hand her the power and show her it matters, as well as looking like you have lost perspective for arguing over something trivial.

Whereas saying something like Whatever, or even not asking why, shows you are disinterested, and will infuriate her as said.

There may be points you want to argue. If so, pick your battles and make them worth it, with the option you can say something along the lines of "That's not how I remember it, Anyway, what do you think about...

OP your DSis sounds like a nightmare. I have worked with a woman like her, best way to deal with her turned out to be the 'OK then' patronising nod, and then giving sympathetic glances/ shoulder shrugs to anyone who catches your eye in the aftermath. 'She's my sister & I love her despite her compulsive lies' type of thing. She'll look like the fool, but it's a personality trait so I would expect it to continue regardless of what you do/ don't do

It will infuriate you, and you will never be able to 'win' unless you have other people onside. Remember that your sister had both of your parents AND her little groupies all lined up to be on her side. You were in an impossible situation.

You need to find a way to deal with your frustration and pain (which are fully justified) away from your sister. So, when you get home write it down, tell your DH, start a thread her, whatever it takes. Trying to deal with it in front of her will never work. Learn how to shut down the conversation, then vent elsewhere. You've had a lifetime of this, so fo course it is hugely painful and upsetting.

And feel free to vent about the lack of support from your parents as well. They are being horribly biased and willing to let you take the flak so that they don't have to.

you need to stop caring about what your sister says and does, think of her as an irrelevance

First of all, you are not being petty. I think you are right to want to speak up for yourself.

Perhaps the most effective way to deal with it, is to take back the control. Don't get dragged into the power triangle, where it becomes a he said, she said type of scenario.

Be assertive. Clearly state what your opinion is, and YOU end the conversation. Accept that your sister is not going to give the response you hope for. Neither are your parents or friends, for their own reasons. As an example based on your initial scenario, perhaps say "What you are saying isn't correct. I accept that you will not admit that, but know that I will not accept you trying to manipulate me/the situation". You do not have to say anything else. You can move on.

I totally appreciate setting these boundaries are very difficult, op. You may find that your DS is unwilling to respect them. Keep calm and remain clear and concise with your approach.

If this fails, consider reducing contact.

What a cow!! Don't rise to it - have a 'get out phrase' like 'oh this is one of those xxx (insert her name) conversations again where you're making up shit again for god knows what ridiculous purpose .... in out'

I've had to deal with a few people like this; one of which being my own sister who is beyond manipulative but no one seems to see it despite it being completely obvious to me. I totally get what it's like when someone is behaving in this way.

The best way to deal with it in my experience is to simply end her game before it even starts. Rip the wind out her sails from the outset. People can only play these kinds of games if they have an audience and someone to add fuel to it. Remove those elements and she's left with no where to go.

My personal tactic is to keep any communication to an absolute minimum. The more you say in response, she'll take that as some sort of fuel. My preference is to act as I would if someone annoying was talking about something extremely boring that I didn't understand and had no interest in while my mind was occupied with something or someone much more interesting - so I'll perhaps glance at them slightly confused and go "oh... right..." in a dismissive way, then turn to talk to someone else, or suddenly have to check your phone as though you've had an important message - or do whatever you have to do that conveys "you are not important enough for me to waste energy on".

If she goes on then just laugh and again talk to someone else or if you must, say something like "if you say so...." and end it there. Treat her almost the way you would as if humouring an immature child.

You'll be surprised how empowering it is to simply make the decision that you are not engaging with her behaviour. You have power over your decisions - and you are deciding that it's not worth it. Chances are she may step it up a bit and/or kick off more but I'm a big believer in giving people enough rope to hang themselves... so if she wants to behave like a child just sit back and let her get on with it. She'll only end up making herself look silly in the end.

You know the signs of her starting, so if you know she's trying to stir things up either walk away if you can before she even gets going, or use the above tactic... show complete and utter disinterest. She is the most boring person on the planet and not worth your energy. I actually love it when I decide that a person and/or situation has got so boring I no longer can be bothered worrying about it/them... it's empowering and frees you from the stress. And don't worry about what her friends are saying/thinking - just repeat to yourself "what other people think of me is none of my business". That too is extremely freeing and empowering! Let it be their problem - not yours!

Not that I really care what they think of me now anyway, since I don't have much respect for them given how they indulge her narcissistic ways.

That's clearly not true, you do care and a lot. That's what drives the 'getting them on side' element of your latest interaction and it's why you haven't shut down the insane holiday idea immediately. Your DC's and your parents feelings are excuses to continue an unhealthy dynamic.

You may both be in your 40's but you're still acting out a dynamic that originates from when you were children (hence the spectacular childish way you interacted with each other). Everyone has a role in a dynamic, including you but your responsibility begins and ends with your role. You can not change your sister or how your parents or her friends interacts with her but for your own sanity, you do need to acknowledge your role if you're ever going to move forward.

Your whole post screams 'I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, SHE'S CRAZY' and that's what the witnesses to your interaction saw along with your sisters 'I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, SHE'S CRAZY' retorts. No one cared except you and your sister and if you stopped caring she'd be on her own.

Your power isn't going to be reclaimed by exposing her crazy but from disengaging from it.

I stuck up for DN - I could see myself as a little girl right before my eyes. God I hope I can change that dynamic so that they don't live it all over again

actually you can't change it. You physically and emotionally aren't in a position to.

What you can do, once you've got the hang of handling her by not responding to her, is to be silently sympathetic to your DN. A look, even a touch on the shoulder occasionally. Silent sympathy will reassure DN that she isn't unreasonable and give her faith in herself. It'll be one adult who understands, and that's very important. But absolutely no verbal criticism or anything overt!

This has to come from a position when you are strong enough for your sister not to fluster you.

When you are isolated with difficult parents, it can help to see that someone gets it.

The craziest thing about this situation is that you keep playing right into your sister's hands when you KNOW what she's like and who she is. Just stop. There will never be any winning with someone like that.