How do you shut down a manipulative relative?

[CatsLoveCatkins]

I've just had yet another argument with my family, and I need to learn some coping strategies, fast.

My younger sister is nasty, manipulative and controlling. I've spent far too much time with her and our parents over Christmas, and today it just got too much.

We had a ridiculous petty argument, which was embarrassing (we were in company), and pointless - Forgive me for going into detail here, but I really need to get this out in black and white and for someone to please tell me I'm not going mad.

We went out shopping with my parents and friends and I had gone off on my own for a bit. We had agreed to give each other a call when one of us figured out where to meet for lunch. My sister rang me to say they were heading for a cafe - we'll call this Cafe A. I agreed, and headed off there.

Before I got there, she called me again and said they'd changed their minds and were going to look for somewhere else. I said that's fine, and said I was actually close to a place which looked nice and suggested we went there instead - we'll call it Cafe B. She agreed and we all met there for lunch.

During lunch I asked her what had made her change her mind about going to Cafe A. She said it was because I had suggested Cafe B.

I said no, that wasn't what happened, they had already decided not to go to Cafe A when she rang me, that is why she rang me - and it was only during that second phone conversation that I suggested Cafe B. She insisted that they only decided not to go to Cafe A because I had suggested Cafe B.

Despite me telling her that it was physically impossible, she wouldn't have it. I kept trying to ask why she had decided against Cafe A, and she insisted it was because I'd suggested Cafe B. She insisted that I had suggested Cafe B before she rang me (which is impossible). She then tried to imply that I was denying I'd suggested going to Cafe B at all - which of course I wasn't, I was just trying to point out that I'd only brought up Cafe B during the second phone call, which she made after deciding not to go to Cafe A. She said I was going mad, and she refused to understand what I was trying to say.

At this point I looked at our friends, and asked whether any of them understood what I was trying to say. Nobody said anything, and my parents told us both to shut up. My sister stuck her fingers in her ears going "la la la" and refused to discuss it any further (I should add at this point that we're both in our 40s, we're not children). When she went to the toilet, I asked my Mother whether she understood what I was trying to say, and she did - but wouldn't admit it in front of my sister.

I was so bloody angry and frustrated I was shaking. And I'm left arguing about a bloody phonecall and a cafe which is totally petty and pointless.....!!! But I couldn't let it lie because she was trying to make out I was going mad!!

She does this all the time - she will misunderstand / misrepresent something minor, and when I try to correct her version of events she will always somehow twist, deny and manipulate the conversation so that I end up arguing about something ridiculous and feeling like I'm going mad. She could argue black was white, then tell me I was mad for ever suggesting such a thing. My parents are terrified of standing up to her and just allow her to manipulate us all. And I've slowly come to realize she has done this all our lives.

How do I deal with it? The obvious answer is to stay the hell away from them, which I intend to - but when I can't avoid being in their company, how do I shut down this sort of manipulative behaviour?? How do I control my emotions so that I don't go to pieces the next time she does this??

She sounds exhausting!

I have quite a difficult relationship with my older sister and have had years of arguments and angst over how to deal with her. What works for me is less contact - which makes me sad but it's true. We never spend any time just the two of us, rarely text each other and never speak on the phone. We do live close by though and our family are close. When the family are all together I definitely withdraw a bit from conversation, especially anything controversial or that I don't agree with. I have to just walk away if it's getting heated now. There is no point getting stressed out myself!

It can be easier said than done, but as someone else said she knows exactly how to wind you up - you need to find a way to not rise to it! Cool calm collected 😇 I don't think she'll like it.

As many other PPs have said, drop the rope. She knows how to play you, she knows what buttons to press, your reaction is one huge reward. There's no point wasting your time trying to figure out why/what's going on with her/understanding it on a deeper level, you're not her therapist and probably not even she knows.

I grew up with a sib like this, later diagnosed with a personality disorder. The only thing to do was just not engage. At all. If a barb was thrown, I'd do the 'ooh look something shiny' distract. (I'm desperate for another coffee, who'd like one? Oh I meant to tell you, I saw so and so the other day!) My sib would just continue to throw barbs, more and more obviously, trying to get the reaction they wanted, and if it became apparent they weren't going to quit then I'd develop a sudden headache/gas left on at home/emergency work call and leave.

You can't win, you can't be right, you can't get them to play by normal social rules, the only thing you can do is manage the situation to be as least damaging as possible or walk away. Don't be guilted into going on the holiday. Lots of ohhh wish I could but my pet dinosaur's aunt has a hernia that week and my toes have fallen off work, you know, can't wait to hear all about it, have a lovely time.

Oh god and don't go on holiday with her!!

God there is some really incredible advice on this thread. I am looking up Gray Rock technique.

CatsLoveCatkins

in future, I should do what you all advise and as soon as I get a sense of her goading I'll go with "Oh whatever you say" and change the subject.

The answer is much simpler, do not engage.

Your question in this ( a sensible, normal question) allows her to take control and brings you in to the 'discussion' that she has control over.

If you have to be with her respond in a civil manner but don't get drawn in.

As for the holiday. don't do it.

If you dont want to break your parents' hearts and do opt to go on holiday then I would only go if the accommodation was separate.

This whole situation would really really rile me.

But this year DF has big ideas of a dream mini break and is desperate for us all to go. I would break their hearts if I refused. I just need to find coping strategies

No you don't. You need to sit down with your parents and ask why on earth they think this is a good idea. Point out that nobody ever sticks up for you so why on earth would you even consider going on holiday with your sister.

It's all a game to her, but why do you feel the need to clarify which cafe was suggested first? If you know how the conversation went then just leave it. It doesn't really matter to you that she's telling lies and saying you suggested cafe B first. Is anyone that interested? I'd be saying "whatever" and then just know in yourself that she's lying and then reduce the conversation with her because of what she does. You can't control her responses but you can move on and be more adult and not indulge the fantasy in her head.
Going away with them all is probably a bad idea if this happens regularly, especially as it causes you this much stress. Don't do it. And no, you don't have to explain why or why not to anyone. You are 40 years old now. You're no longer a child.
I think you need to use some boundaries with your family. Just based on all the stress you picked up in this one outing. It's clearly not fun for you. You don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to be right about things. You're not kids anymore. Do your parents encourage the bickering and whose right and whose wrong? It all sounds a bit unhealthy. At 40 you shouldn't have to explain these things or fight like this. You're grown ups now. Make decisions about your connection with them that keep you happy. If you need to leave these catch ups or keep them short, then do so. If you have to reduce your conversation because of how your sister responds, then do so. If you need to see your parents separately without her then do so. You get to call the shots. You're an adult now.

I can't tell you all how grateful I am that you have all read my post and have given me all this advice. When I wrote it last night, I was so upset and I thought when I wrote it down it all looked so petty that no one would respond - or people would just tell me to get a grip.

I didn't sleep very well last night, woke up thinking about it. So annoyed that I let her get under my skin like this.

Off to Google Gray Rock technique now

It's all a game to her, but why do you feel the need to clarify which cafe was suggested first?

I know, it's so petty isn't it. My question was what prompted her to call me the second time - I was wondering why they decided to go against the first cafe since it's somewhere we had all agreed on. I was just making conversation really. But when she twisted reality, it became about me trying to explain what my question was, and how it couldn't possibly have happened the way she said it did - which I agree was pointless and a waste of time and energy.

But yes, I do get to control our interactions, and I must remember to do so. That's another reason why I'm so annoyed with myself about yesterday - we had another difficult day together a few days previously, so I should have known better and said no to yesterday. But a little part of me always thinks it might be nice this time, things might be ok and I go along with it - only to be sorely disappointed.

When I got home I asked DH to remind me of this whenever I suggest spending a day with them all again.

Don't feel bad, she is very skilled at what she does, as said its a game and she finds it rewarding and enjoyable, you're immediately stressed and angry but she is purring inside as soon as you bite.

Its her game, as soon as you respond to her first move you step into her territory, it's all on her terms and she is in control.

Don't respond, don't step into the game

When you engage with her she drains your energy, you are depleted and she gets stronger, she is feeding from you

You have admitted that a day with them is too much, heed this as a warning that an holiday together will be hell!!!

Potentially it could cause a huge family fall out which will not make DF happy will it?

Never wrestle a pig, you'll get covered in mud and the pig will enjoy it
That's such a great one isn't it😁

as said its a game and she finds it rewarding and enjoyable

She really does - on both occasions recently, whenever I've taken the bait and argued with her, she threw her hands up to her friends going "See, this is what I have to put up with, welcome to our drama!" - it was all a performance for her friends about how hard done by she is to have to put up with me, and I played right into the part she had written for me.

Not read all the thread so apologies if someone has suggested this. Get a call recording app for your phone. I have one and recently proved a family member was making up vicious lies about what I'd said. Its invaluable.

I know someone like this, but in addition she is actually one of the only evil people I have ever met. The only way to deal with them is keep out of their way, if you have to engage be brief, don't let her wind you up and run.

Some good advice here. Think very hard about the holiday. Someone else's dream sounds like your nightmare.

Don't try and change her, accept that this is what she does and focus on protecting yourself

I'm usually pretty good at avoiding spending too much time with her, particularly when she's with her hangers on / audience. It's just Christmas forcing everyone together I guess. Bloody nightmare always makes me anxious.

It's the weird way in which she twisted the argument (about nothing) which really shocked and stunned me. Rather than bringing it back to straight fact and common sense, I got completely tongue tied and actually started shaking. How do I avoid that from happening again?

When I read all the advice above I think that sounds brilliant, but when I'm in the situation all of that goes out of the window and I'm a 7 year old being bullied by my sister again.....

Have you ever asked your parents why they indulge her and choose not to back you up?

I have only this to add to the wise advice already given...

Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.

Have you ever asked your parents why they indulge her and choose not to back you up?

I've never put it in those terms - and I might just do that. But usually when we talk about her, they say we're as bad as each other, I wind her up blah blah. They indulge her and allow her bad behaviour and are afraid of confronting her because she will attack them.

don't go on that hell-trip.
it will not be a holiday for you.
instead do something you really want to do.

I think you are at least recognising what is happening now, and recognising your part in it too, so hopefully you'll get better and better at spotting it as it starts and then changing your reaction. You need to recognise that you're as much a participant in this as her, and as she's clearly not going to change her script you need to change yours.

I wouldn't even get into 'no, this is what happened, this is what I'm asking' because it's just continuing the argument. Why does it matter why they changed their minds about where to eat? What response were you expecting? If there already seemed to be tension and you thought she might already be wound up about it then why did you bring it up? Are you 100% sure it wasn't to needle her or score points?

Don't bother asking I'd say. Or if you do and she twists things then just stick to 'no, that's not how it happened but never mind let's talk about something else' or 'ok, that's not what I was asking but no point going into it, this is a nice place anyway isn't it, how's the tea mum?' Keep it simple, resist the temptation to get a dig in or reiterate your version or 'prove' you're right, you know full well she's never going to say 'actually sister you're right, I'm wrong and I'm sorry'. That might be what you're desperate to hear but it's clear it's not going to happen. Likewise your parents are unlikely to start jumping in and giving you the validation you're wanting when they've not done it in 40+ years.

If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.