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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How do you shut down a manipulative relative?

116 replies

CatsLoveCatkins · 28/12/2016 23:07

I've just had yet another argument with my family, and I need to learn some coping strategies, fast.

My younger sister is nasty, manipulative and controlling. I've spent far too much time with her and our parents over Christmas, and today it just got too much.

We had a ridiculous petty argument, which was embarrassing (we were in company), and pointless - Forgive me for going into detail here, but I really need to get this out in black and white and for someone to please tell me I'm not going mad.

We went out shopping with my parents and friends and I had gone off on my own for a bit. We had agreed to give each other a call when one of us figured out where to meet for lunch. My sister rang me to say they were heading for a cafe - we'll call this Cafe A. I agreed, and headed off there.

Before I got there, she called me again and said they'd changed their minds and were going to look for somewhere else. I said that's fine, and said I was actually close to a place which looked nice and suggested we went there instead - we'll call it Cafe B. She agreed and we all met there for lunch.

During lunch I asked her what had made her change her mind about going to Cafe A. She said it was because I had suggested Cafe B.

I said no, that wasn't what happened, they had already decided not to go to Cafe A when she rang me, that is why she rang me - and it was only during that second phone conversation that I suggested Cafe B. She insisted that they only decided not to go to Cafe A because I had suggested Cafe B.

Despite me telling her that it was physically impossible, she wouldn't have it. I kept trying to ask why she had decided against Cafe A, and she insisted it was because I'd suggested Cafe B. She insisted that I had suggested Cafe B before she rang me (which is impossible). She then tried to imply that I was denying I'd suggested going to Cafe B at all - which of course I wasn't, I was just trying to point out that I'd only brought up Cafe B during the second phone call, which she made after deciding not to go to Cafe A. She said I was going mad, and she refused to understand what I was trying to say.

At this point I looked at our friends, and asked whether any of them understood what I was trying to say. Nobody said anything, and my parents told us both to shut up. My sister stuck her fingers in her ears going "la la la" and refused to discuss it any further (I should add at this point that we're both in our 40s, we're not children). When she went to the toilet, I asked my Mother whether she understood what I was trying to say, and she did - but wouldn't admit it in front of my sister.

I was so bloody angry and frustrated I was shaking. And I'm left arguing about a bloody phonecall and a cafe which is totally petty and pointless.....!!! But I couldn't let it lie because she was trying to make out I was going mad!!

She does this all the time - she will misunderstand / misrepresent something minor, and when I try to correct her version of events she will always somehow twist, deny and manipulate the conversation so that I end up arguing about something ridiculous and feeling like I'm going mad. She could argue black was white, then tell me I was mad for ever suggesting such a thing. My parents are terrified of standing up to her and just allow her to manipulate us all. And I've slowly come to realize she has done this all our lives.

How do I deal with it? The obvious answer is to stay the hell away from them, which I intend to - but when I can't avoid being in their company, how do I shut down this sort of manipulative behaviour?? How do I control my emotions so that I don't go to pieces the next time she does this??

OP posts:
Confusednotcom · 29/12/2016 00:46

And don't be hard on yourself! There's no need to wish it had gone differently - id just look forward to her reaction when you refuse to be drawn into an argument in the future Grin

CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 00:48

As to her moving tables, is she, in her mind, in some sort of competition with you - is she proving she can control social situations because she's lacking in another area e.g. Relationship, job, education?

Hit the nail on the head again there. Yes, she sees herself as the one who should control our parents, and all our social interactions etc. She feels inferior to me in all 3 of the areas you mention above, and frequently mentions it. She also frequently says that she's clearly a nicer person than me, is better able to 'deal' with our parents than me, will be the one to look after them in old age because she's more caring than me etc etc - none of which is true of course, but it has been her narrative since we were kids.

OP posts:
BubblingUp · 29/12/2016 00:50

She's fucking with you just to be fucking with you. It's a sport to her. She's in control of the entire scene and she's creating drama at her whim and for her entertainment and you are her fuel.

I have family and a co-worker like this. They will never change. They will win at any cost. It's pointless to go up against them. Don't engage.

I don't speak anymore around these people. I only attend what I must attend and nothing else. I sit there, smile pleasantly, follow the conversation, nod occasionally, smile sometimes, never initiate any conversation, never interject and leave quickly with a cheery - "See you later". The trick is to not come across as "not talking" or giving the silent treatment. Don't look angry, don't eye roll, nothing like that. Just don't contribute anything of substance to the conversation. Because what happens - as you know - anything you say can and will be used against you by her then or later.

Don't be her fuel. It just makes you look crazy and she wins again. Your mistake in this instance was asking the question - why did you change Cafe? Never ask a question. Never initiate anything. Don't give her anything to work with.

CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 00:50

She realises how infuriating "whatever you say!" is. So use that. It will really piss her off when you don't rise to the bait - keep telling yourself that, and stay calm and strong

You're right. I will try it. If I add a "OK DSis, do it your way" that will really piss her off (because she does it to me to try to make out that I'm a control freak)

OP posts:
CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 00:53

Your mistake in this instance was asking the question - why did you change Cafe? Never ask a question. Never initiate anything. Don't give her anything to work with.

You're right. I also suspect there had already been an argument about it before I arrived, I sensed when she phoned the second time that she'd been arguing with my parents. so she was already wound up about that particular question before I asked it.

OP posts:
CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 00:56

She's in control of the entire scene and she's creating drama at her whim and for her entertainment and you are her fuel.

Yes that's true. We'd already had a family argument in front of these same friends (they hang off her all the time) last week. So this time, once she'd created the drama with the tables (and no doubt drama with the choice of cafe before I arrived) she announced "welcome to our family arguments, it's ALWAYS like this". Then she started the bizarre argument with me, and it was all eye rolling to her friends going "See, look what I have to put up with".

All engineered by her, all to prove her point to her friends that she's a saint for putting up with this crazy family of hers.

OP posts:
TyneTeas · 29/12/2016 00:58

I read earlier on another thread (can't remember who) a great phrase:

"You do not have to attend every battle you are invited to"

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 29/12/2016 01:02

The friend smiled at you but refused to get involved because she knew it would only be fuel to the fire. The only way to win is to refuse to enter the competition.

Never wrestle a pig, you'll get covered in mud and the pig will enjoy it.

CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 01:03

"You do not have to attend every battle you are invited to"

That's perfect. And so apt - I do feel that she has invited me to rather a few battles over this Christmas. Goading me with triggers that she knows wind me up.

Awful thing is I see her doing it to her DCs too, and I see them reacting the same way I do. Horrible to see history repeating itself like that.

OP posts:
CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 01:04

Never wrestle a pig, you'll get covered in mud and the pig will enjoy it.

God I might have to get that tattooed on myself! And read it every time she winds me up!!!!!

OP posts:
Kazplus2 · 29/12/2016 03:29

You say, " oh here we go again " or "oh whatever" and then drop it.

Everytimeref · 29/12/2016 03:48

I had a similar disagreement with my sister today, over her DD behaviour towards my DD. My sister is totally in the wrong and knows it but somehow it ends up me who has to apologise because I got upset and angry and put the phone down on her.
She is currently staying with my DF and his partner. The partner dislikes me as I am too similar to my DM and obviously got her two penny's worth in because a comment my sister made parroted something my DF partner said to me recently.
Now I can't sleep because I am upset and tomorrow I have to pretend everything is fine for my DM sake.
I think I need to take on some of the advise from this thead, myself!

saintagur · 29/12/2016 03:48

Are you sure you are in your 40s? You both sound about 6 or 7 years old. I can't imagine why your parents would want to go on holiday with you both, to be honest.

WhereYouLeftIt · 29/12/2016 04:27

"My parents want us all to go away on holiday together next year - I honestly don't know what to do. I dont' want to disappoint my parents, but I really don't know how I'd cope with her behaviour."
Do not go. Your parents are happy to disappoint you and let their other daughter gaslight you, so don't worry about disappointing them. A holiday is supposed to be relaxing, this would not be a holiday for you.

"I've just read an article about gaslighting - she ticks every single box. Withholding, Countering, Blocking, Trivializing, Denying - she does all of those things in the course of a normal conversation."
Maybe, have a 'Bingo Card' of these behaviours in your head when your with her. Tick them off and allow yourself a wry smile when you hit House. Analysing her behaviour as it happens can put it at arm's length; it's not personal any more, it's a puzzle you're examining with interest, and this can prevent it from winding you up.

Scooby20 · 29/12/2016 04:41

My sil is like this. I only maintain polite converstation when I have to see her. Never ask questions and shut down any converstation where I know she is trying to goad me.

She has started trying to start debates. At Christmas she was trying to get me into a sahm/wohm debate (I Work, she is a sahm and she has made it clear she thinks I shouldn't have had kids if I was going to work). I don't care what other women choose to do so just said "oh I think it's up to each family to decide what's best for them' And then asked my brother a totally unrelated question.

It infuriates her, because I can't be baited by her. Also I have noticed, since starting this, that more people have picked up on her goading behaviour. She knows this and it pisses her off even more.

AndTheBandPlayedOn · 29/12/2016 04:47

OP, imho, your sister is angry. She has a predatory anger that she satisfies by triggering you (I agree that it is sport for her). Your frustration is also anger-completely different kind of anger (a response rather than instigator), but the abusive one will not acknowledge this difference and then make hay of your anger-throwing fat on the fire.
Also
What Bubbling said, spot on.
Google Gray Rock-technique for dealing with psychopaths. Don't be put off by "psychopath"...scroll down to "What is it" in the article and it lists types of difficult people to disengage/shield yourself...do not attract attention to yourself. It is psychological self-defense.

Also long ago on these threads, a helpful mental picture was described that has been useful to me: adopt the behavior of a mother cat as she is bemused by the silly antics of the kittens but gives no second thought to walking away when they begin to pester her.

I also like Hercule Poirot's method of the squinty eyes, tight smile and rapid nods that convey 'yes, I hear you, but you and I both know what you say is bs (spectacularly missing the point)'. It is agreeableness but a conversation stopper at the same time.
Prolonged periods of exposure are problematic. I use a hobby like cross stitch to do, to focus on as an excuse to half listen-or not listen at all. It is not quite as "don't bother me" as reading a book would be (but I have done that too).

No contact is the best answer. That is a physical detachment. If you can not do that, then you can emotionally detach. Stop caring what she thinks. She has worn your care out. Your duty to her as family has been worn out: you can not continuously be a renewable resource-ego supply- for her. Enough is enough. 40 something is a common age when people decide to just not put up with that crap anymore- life is too short.

TheNaze73 · 29/12/2016 08:28

You're playing into her hands by being & showing you're bothered.

Laugh it off & be dismissive, don't give her fire energy

hellsbellsmelons · 29/12/2016 09:21

A simple; 'Yes DEAR, that is exactly how it happened'
Said very patronisingly.

Then move the conversation on!
If she continues you can just say 'Well that's exactly what I just said, you are of course right'
Repeat

llangennith · 29/12/2016 09:31

Lots of really good advice here already so I wasn't going to comment: until I read about the holiday idea. Don't go!!! Not even to please your DM.
A breezy, "No I don't think I want to do that but you have a lovely time " is enough. You don't have to give a reason.

aforestgrewandgrew · 29/12/2016 09:46

You need to let go of the idea you can get her to admit she's wrong, she won't. Instead you need to find a way to disengage.

Personally I'd find it hard not to point out what she's doing. I'd say something like:

"Oh, you're doing that thing again where you remember things differently to everyone else, aren't you? We'll just have to agree to disagree then." BIG SMILE. And move on.

And then refuse to get drawn into the conversation again. If she tries to continue it, calmly say "we remember it differently, there's no point in discussing it. Have you decided what you want for dessert yet?". BIG SMILE.

FantasticButtocks · 29/12/2016 09:50

Do not go on holiday with the family! It will be hell.

You are your sister's plaything at the moment. So you need to change the rules of engagement. "Of course, you're right, sis!" To every goady thing she says, swiftly followed by turning your attention completely away from her and on to someone else 'How was your christmas/holiday/hospital stay, Mavis/John/mum/dad?'

You need to stop giving her fuel.

And it is true (it was my therapist that once said to me 'you don't have to turn up to every argument you're invited to' and I've quoted it on MN many times) that you do not have to accept these 'invitations' from her.

You can't change her behaviour, you can only change yours. If you come across like you couldn't give a shiny shit what her version is, you don't even care enough to argue....then maybe you will come to feel genuinely indifferent.

In answer to your question about how can you even have a relationship with a person like this, I'm afraid you can't. Not a genuine one. She renders it impossible.

ChristmasBleatings · 29/12/2016 09:53

As soon as I read your account of her ridiculous antics I was thinking that my response would have been a breezy 'OK, have it your own way'. No more argument. Wind taken out of her sails. You (probably) wouldn't have felt so horrendously manipulated - but I can see it's difficult with someone utterly hellbent on creating drama.

Detach, detach, detach. You'll never win by engaging with a person like this.

And do not go on holiday with her.

CatsLoveCatkins · 29/12/2016 09:53

You're all absolutely right. Knowing the answer to my question was nowhere near important enough to have got into this ridiculous argument - in future, I should do what you all advise and as soon as I get a sense of her goading I'll go with "Oh whatever you say" and change the subject.

As for the holiday - I did that last year - told them there was no way I would go. But this year DF has big ideas of a dream mini break and is desperate for us all to go. I would break their hearts if I refused. I just need to find coping strategies.

I've been away with my sister and the DCs in the past year, and she was absolutely fine - because it was one on one, so no audience. As soon as we add someone else into the dynamic that's when the problems start.

OP posts:
aforestgrewandgrew · 29/12/2016 09:53

Or if you want a less inflamatory version:

"Isn't it interesting that we remember the same thing so differently? Funny thing, memory, it?!" BIG SMILE and move on.

Littlegreyauditor · 29/12/2016 10:28

Sorry to seem cruel but your father is manipulating you with the "heartbreak" if you don't go on holiday. That is his problem. If you don't go your sister needs to find another target, that's why they are desperate for you to go. To be the buffer.

Why in hell should you put yourself to time and expense so your sister can use you as a scratching post? Don't be daft. Avoid at all costs. It's time to start protecting yourself, OP.