How do you shut down a manipulative relative?

[CatsLoveCatkins]

I've just had yet another argument with my family, and I need to learn some coping strategies, fast.

My younger sister is nasty, manipulative and controlling. I've spent far too much time with her and our parents over Christmas, and today it just got too much.

We had a ridiculous petty argument, which was embarrassing (we were in company), and pointless - Forgive me for going into detail here, but I really need to get this out in black and white and for someone to please tell me I'm not going mad.

We went out shopping with my parents and friends and I had gone off on my own for a bit. We had agreed to give each other a call when one of us figured out where to meet for lunch. My sister rang me to say they were heading for a cafe - we'll call this Cafe A. I agreed, and headed off there.

Before I got there, she called me again and said they'd changed their minds and were going to look for somewhere else. I said that's fine, and said I was actually close to a place which looked nice and suggested we went there instead - we'll call it Cafe B. She agreed and we all met there for lunch.

During lunch I asked her what had made her change her mind about going to Cafe A. She said it was because I had suggested Cafe B.

I said no, that wasn't what happened, they had already decided not to go to Cafe A when she rang me, that is why she rang me - and it was only during that second phone conversation that I suggested Cafe B. She insisted that they only decided not to go to Cafe A because I had suggested Cafe B.

Despite me telling her that it was physically impossible, she wouldn't have it. I kept trying to ask why she had decided against Cafe A, and she insisted it was because I'd suggested Cafe B. She insisted that I had suggested Cafe B before she rang me (which is impossible). She then tried to imply that I was denying I'd suggested going to Cafe B at all - which of course I wasn't, I was just trying to point out that I'd only brought up Cafe B during the second phone call, which she made after deciding not to go to Cafe A. She said I was going mad, and she refused to understand what I was trying to say.

At this point I looked at our friends, and asked whether any of them understood what I was trying to say. Nobody said anything, and my parents told us both to shut up. My sister stuck her fingers in her ears going "la la la" and refused to discuss it any further (I should add at this point that we're both in our 40s, we're not children). When she went to the toilet, I asked my Mother whether she understood what I was trying to say, and she did - but wouldn't admit it in front of my sister.

I was so bloody angry and frustrated I was shaking. And I'm left arguing about a bloody phonecall and a cafe which is totally petty and pointless.....!!! But I couldn't let it lie because she was trying to make out I was going mad!!

She does this all the time - she will misunderstand / misrepresent something minor, and when I try to correct her version of events she will always somehow twist, deny and manipulate the conversation so that I end up arguing about something ridiculous and feeling like I'm going mad. She could argue black was white, then tell me I was mad for ever suggesting such a thing. My parents are terrified of standing up to her and just allow her to manipulate us all. And I've slowly come to realize she has done this all our lives.

How do I deal with it? The obvious answer is to stay the hell away from them, which I intend to - but when I can't avoid being in their company, how do I shut down this sort of manipulative behaviour?? How do I control my emotions so that I don't go to pieces the next time she does this??

Keep it simple, resist the temptation to get a dig in or reiterate your version or 'prove' you're right, you know full well she's never going to say 'actually sister you're right, I'm wrong and I'm sorry'.

I'm guilty of that - I've always felt the need to right the wrongs and state my version, which always inflames the argument to the point that she shuts it down with a pronouncement that she wont' discuss it any further. Every time. But I'm wrong for not letting go and going on about the issues, I know that.

Awful thing is that I saw my DN (her DD) do the exact same thing with her at Christmas. Sis was being unreasonable about something, and DN was insisting it should be a certain way, and she shut her down. I stuck up for DN - I could see myself as a little girl right before my eyes. God I hope I can change that dynamic so that they don't live it all over again.

I have a close family member exactly like this. It is gaslighting and I rose to the bait for years Can think of many embarrassing and public instances. She was like an angler watching a dying fish flail about.

Now I correct the gaslight once or twice, gently. Then I stop speaking. Relation then says "why have you stopped talking?" and I give her The Look.

Inevitably she tries to return to the gaslight a few days/weeks later and I have to repeat the action. Better than circular slanging matches, though.

I haven't read beyond your first post.

I have stopped caring, that was the most important change and it took a long while. Then when my sibling said something deliberately goading just this week, I broke eye contact, looked away ( not down but sideways iyswim!) and ignored. Worked a treat.

The more I read about gaslighting the more I see that's exactly what she's doing - it's a type of psychological manipulation isn't it. She ticks all the boxes.

I'm going to try my best to remember all of this for the next time. Grey rock. Correct gently if I can, or repeat 'no, that's not how it happened but you clearly remember it differently' or 'if you say so'.

The reason I don't do the 'if you say so' thing is that it's something that she and my parents have always used on me as a passive aggressive tool - so I'll state something as fact, and if they don't want to agree with me they'll say "if you say so" and refuse to discuss. It riles me, and they know it. So I don't do it back to them because I hate having it done to me. But I can see that it would work in this relationship, so I'll give it a go.

You can't engage. Think of it like quicksand, if you go in there is only one fate and the more you struggle the worse it gets.

She will soon learn the rules have changed. Just stop when it begins and walk away. If you are at a table, strike up a totally different conversation with someone else. If she does it to her dc, say 'I understand exactly what you're saying' and then engage them in something totally different.

My nemesis was PoisonousSIL. She played such games and I, trying to be polite, fell for every single one of them.

Then a mutual friend caught her out and laughed at her. PoisonousSIL was way beyond furious but didn't seem to have a coping strategy for that response, so I borrowed it!

"Oooh!" she cooed "I should have been the one to marry MrBlanche, he likes me !" - I smiled, laughed and turned to talk to someone else.

"Oooh" cooed her DM to the priest just before PoisonousSIL married DHs DB "This is MrBlanche, the one PoisonousSIL should have married" - I looked at BIL smiled and shook my head (DH had a coughing fit that required him to leave the room) - and no, I am not joking, PoisonousSIL and her mum seemed to think it was a reasonable thing to say to the priest, in front of me, my DH and the soon to be groom!!

Give me the free gift (plastic necklace) you get when opening a catalogue for Christmas and get a well thought out, personalised voucher to a dance club that I know you will not be able to resist! And no, I will never mention either of them... except that one time when you very bestest friend asked why I was wearing such shite jewellery.... "Oh, PoisonousSIL bought it for me for Christmas, so I usually wear it when we visit, so she can see how much I appreciate her gifts" I replied, extremely sweetly, innocently

Then we went NC. Life is good

All you have to do is find your own go to sentence. I had to practice saying mine, smiling into a mirror so I got a feel for it. I know that sounds daft, but she has had practice being a bitch, you need to catch up!

So... Smile and say.....

Good luck

x post

It sounds to me that possibly there is some greater dysfunction going on in your family. Is it possible one of your parents has fuelled this by creating roles for you - you being scapegoat whilst your dsis is golden child? That's why she is 'allowed' to be controlling whilst you are put down with 'if you say so' bollocks - your feelings don't matter as much. If this is the dynamic then your dsis is as much a victim as you as she'll be struggling with the claustrophobia of being the 'golden child' and this blatant manipulation is her way of regaining control.

If you go into the situation prepared, eyes open to what is happening ready for her to do it with a strategy in mind, you will already be in a stronger state of mind. Games you often see talked about here like 'bingo' give you mental control and let you handle the situation from an analytical point of view instead of an emotional one. Instead of getting sucked in when you spot an opening gambit you just mentally think ooh, tick that one!

Just in case it comes in useful, I found that any on topic reply I tried such as 'if you say so' or even 'we'll have to agree to disagree' were joyfully accepted as material to use in battle because it was still pushing back on my part. The only thing that worked for me was to blank it completely as if I'd never heard it, and to distract to something else. Grey rock technique is brilliant, if I'd known about it then I'd have also tried the vague 'hmm', followed by something banal about isn't tea expensive these days?

My parents fed me to my very difficult sibling too to protect themselves. I was a nice person who had limits as to how far I'd go even at my most upset. I wasn't hard work even when most upset. However my sib had no conscience whatsoever about escalating as far as necessary in order to win, was very difficult to handle once annoyed, and my parents didn't want to have to deal with that. The hard part was to let go the desire that one of the lazy so and sos would actually recognise the injustice and step up to protect me.

The whole family are relying on you to keep the social contract while Dsis doesn't. There is no way of getting them to see there's something wrong with it or to change what they do. Your problem isn't that they have somehow not noticed some key facts, it's that your Dsis and parents' needs are getting met by the batshit. You cannot reason or engage with batshit.

I don't have any tips but I have lots of sympathy.
I have a relative just like this and reading this thread has been a bit of a revelation and extremely helpful for me.

Yes it's learning to let go of my need to be heard / to right a wrong / get my point across - that's what I need to do.

My point / the truth / whatever matters less at that point than getting out of the conversation without an argument. I must remember that.

Forget trying to be heard, just let it go. I've never been good at that.

Ooh weird, 'Let it Go' song just came on the TV!!!

JJbum I'm glad it's helping you too - there are some great threads in Relationships with some very knowledgeable people who understand all this stuff very well.

Hah, so after hearing 'Let it Goooooo' on TV just now, I've decided that should be my little secret theme song whenever she's winding me up. I'll just sing that in my head!!

"Oh no dear sis you seem confused again are you ok?" head tilt, smile sympathetically and pat her hand.

Will drive her mad.

What an awful witch you have for a sister.

Has anyone mentioned the grey rock technique? When dealing with people who feel the need to put you on the back foot/press buttons just make yourself as boring as possible. Don't ask/say anything that could be used. Keep convo to the weather sort of thing. Shut down any attempt on their behalf to stir by looking disinterested/bored. Also consider exit strategies. If you need to take a breather pretend you've just got a message from a friend and need to leave the room to make a quick call.

Oh yes and playing the bingo game in your head can make it more fun. When I have to talk to the difficult person in my life I keep a running mental tally of how many times they make a veiled attack on someone, and how many times she makes a stealth boast 'Pete was telling me I need to stop putting everyone first', ' Pam said she's never known anyone as generous as me'. It's funnier on the phone because I can hold a finger up every time but soon run out of digits.

Very good post, rumblilngDM.

Cats, you might do well to read a bit about sibling rivalry (also adult sibling rivalry). That is what it sounds like is going on here, imho. Your parents did not do you, nor your sister, any favors as was previously discussed (golden child/scapegoat). I am sorry, but imho, you can not expect any help from your parents here as rumblingDM said. They will not want to choose sides, perhaps rightly so...but that is a positive/validation/green light to the bully.

"See, this is what I have to put up with, welcome to our drama!" This is a statement that is ridiculing you, publicly at that. She sets the stage, almost by script as you noticed, so she can use and reuse this little gem.
Perhaps she is well into a campaign of Death By Ten Thousand Cuts. Fine. She wins. It is over now. Do not participate anymore. No retaliation, no hate, no engagement. Just be done.

I think the whole overall dynamic is designed to keep you subordinate; or at least the other way around-make her superior. When you attempt to correct her, she may see it as you keeping her subordinate and defends herself with the alternative reality as she knows, at the end of the day, it is just your word against hers. But you get angry, and presto: she "wins". Over nothing, as you are aware.

I got completely tongue tied and actually started shaking.
I think this is a threshold that you should not ignore. It really is time to step away-as losing sleep over it indicates as well. It is not mentally healthy for you to be around her. Avoid as though you are allergic to her. The stress and anxiety are not worth maintaining the relationship. There is enough stress in day to day life that we have to deal with. Stress from you sister can and should be cut right out, sharpish, without a backward glance.

Skip the family holiday, your mental health depends on it. You don't need the months of dread in anticipation of going; you don't need to do something optional that is to be endured; you don't need the detox time afterward to recover. Your schedule is full. See your folks before or after a holiday to avoid her; you need to create your own traditions with your own family, right?

I stuck up for DN - I could see myself as a little girl right before my eyes. God I hope I can change that dynamic so that they don't live it all over again

No no no no

You will drive yourself mad. I know it's hard to watch but do not under any circumstances doom yourself to forever replays your childhood dynamic. Offer your niece support and a sympathetic ear, but in over 40 years you have not managed to change your sister. Why the hell do you think you have a chance now?

Practice the grey rock. Over and over.

(As you can tell I have one of these in my life, I wasted a LOT of years trying to 'save' my childhood self, over and over till I realised -thanks to MN the easy, obvious way. Don't engage)

Also, what all the others have said

DONT GO ON THE HOLIDAY

You say it will break your DF heart... he didn't exactly bust a gut protecting you from the dynamic.

Anyhow he is idealising, the holiday he is imagining won't happen will it?

Save him from his folly. Please.

I have a similar relationship with younger brother. I got really upset by his treatment of me at Christmas so much that I lost sleep. I'm considering avoiding any extended family gatherings next Christmas and just having it as dh and dc. It's funny as he is also fine when it's just me and him but turns into a coast fucker in front of my parents. I would never consider going on a family holiday with him. Also going to read up on adult sibling rivalry. There has been some brilliant advice on this thread. Thank you to all the posters.

Goady, not coasts!

Two things you've said have set me thinking OP. The first was in response to a post:

redexpat - "Have you ever asked your parents why they indulge her and choose not to back you up?"
OP - "I've never put it in those terms - and I might just do that. But usually when we talk about her, they say we're as bad as each other, I wind her up blah blah. They indulge her and allow her bad behaviour and are afraid of confronting her because she will attack them."
IMO this means that your parent are either incredibly stupid to have not noticed that one daughter, the same daughter every time, always starts it; or they are partly responsible for the dysfunction. They are refusing to see what's in front of their eyes, because then they might actually have to do something about it. And the longer they have let this continue, the more they are at fault. They could have squashed this, or at least attempted to do so, when their daughters could still be sanctioned and sent to their room. They did not do so. The fault is theirs, they were the adults who CHOSE not to intervene in your sister's bullying.

And I think you are correct that they are afraid to confront her on her behaviour as that will turn her fire onto them. They are throwing you under the bus to save themselves, as it were .

Your parents will NEVER have your back. To back you up is to admit that you are not both as bad as each other, and to accept that they have been shit parents. Not going to happen.

"As for the holiday - I did that last year - told them there was no way I would go. But this year DF has big ideas of a dream mini break and is desperate for us all to go. I would break their hearts if I refused. I just need to find coping strategies."
I am so with your father over this! And it shows that your sister learned her manipulation at his knee, because that's all his 'big idea' is - an attempt to manipulate you through guilt and dangling a carrot. The reason he is desperate for you to go is so that you can draw her fire away from him and your mum. Presumably she has manipulated them into this joint holiday and they know they'll be in the firing line if it's just them and her.

It would not break their hears if you refused to go, because clearly there is a big hole where their hearts should be. You want a coping strategy? The word 'no'. Do NOT go on this holiday, they are setting you up to be a fish in a barrel, which your sister will gleefully shoot.

Please don't go on this holiday OP. Your parents need you to be there to be DSis whipping girl - to maintain the status quo.

Now you have seen the light you won't be able to fulfill your function and it will go badly wrong.

Make whatever excuse you have to, or tell the truth, but please do not put yourself through this.

This is my EX all over.

I had similar advice on a thread aDvice on a thread about not engaging. The first time I ever shrugged my shoulders, said 'whatever' and walked off, I felt like punching the air. He didn't even notice and followed me round to carry on with the argument he wanted to have. I didn't say anymore that's 'hmm' and 'so you said'. Then he stormed off in a big huff for two days and it was downhill, for him anyway, from there.

You never going to win an argument with a gas lighter because they'll argue black is white. So don't try.

You need to say much much less... Every time you engage with her you give her material to create drama from. That is what she enjoys, drama and winning and excitement. If you don't play, she can't win.

Just say 'really?' 'Is that what you remember?' 'Do you think?' 'Oh ok...'

In a bored time of voice, with a bored eye roll. She'll give up. She'll look weird if she carries on,

This is my sibling (has a diagnosed personality disorder) - this thread is full of great advice: don't engage, don't care (because it's not about who is right/wrong like it is with others, it's about the PD individual making them self feel better at your expense)

Their manipulation is not like other people's: it's so expert they do it like breathing! So just go low contact/low emotion and also disengage emotionally

The holiday sounds like an expensive way to have a horrible time: if you do want to go, your own accom (a few mins walk away) would help your sanity a lot: I cannot be under same roof as sibling but daily time together I find bearable if I have somewhere to escape to!

That would give you control over the situation and also set a boundary: I never see my sibling alone or stay in her home and that helps me a lot too

OP

Your family would rather shut YOU down than have to deal with her rage/drama etc.

I get the same 'you're as bad as each other' line re my narc sibling.
I no longer have any fucks to give when it comes to her so i'm very blunt with them.

I second the pp who said get a recording app on your phone, i'd also communicate via text with her so it's there in black and white.
i have a folder saved with all comm from her so anytime she tries gaslighting me - i've got proof.

I understand too well how frustrating it is to always have to be the 'bigger person'.
So now i completely refuse to arrange anything with her, i refuse to give her my opinion or advice on anything, when she starts carping on i totally ignore her, carry on talking to someone else as though i cannot hear or see her.

if, on the rare occasion, she seeks me out re anything i always say "hang on, i need to record this so there's no confusion later on." Guaranteed she will stop the conversation then and there
The result is what i wanted - reduced contact with her.

Although i have been known to ask her (with a very concerned face) if she was on crack/glue/anti psychotics, when she starts rewriting history