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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Being groped in front of the children

145 replies

carrottop30 · 29/10/2016 21:51

I have reaptedly told my husband not to grope my breasts in front of our four year old daughter. Today whilst making lunch he tried to do it again and I told him not to do it in front of the children. He then cuddled me and did it anyway! I lost it big time, I have had things happen to me as a teenager so I think it was the fact I told him not to and he did it anyway that pushed me over the edge.

I took my daughter out this afternoon and came back at tea time, after she went to bed I told him I am disgusted with him as I had told him not to and then my daughter saw that he did it anyway - what does this teach our daughter about boundaries and respect?

He said I am over reacting, which didn't go down to well with me, he has now packed some stuff and left. I need to know if I am over reacting, are things that have happened to me in the past clouding my judgement.

As he left he starting muttering he made a mistake! I am not sure where he has gone so now I am worried.

I also have a son who is a baby and although he obviously doesn't know what is happening I want him to treat women with respect.

OP posts:
ocelot7 · 30/10/2016 11:01

I was referring to (as the OP mentioned) never having talked about this past abuse in all the time they had been together.
I was not referring to the incident in the OP when she said no.

KatieScarlett · 30/10/2016 11:07

So what? Does that negate her being clear about saying no? Should she not feel no is enough? Is no only worth listening to when one has been abused?
Or do you feel this man, to which a clear no was igoned, would automatically have stopped had only he known about the past abuse?
Because if that is the case, you know nothing about how abusers operate. Lucky you.

ocelot7 · 30/10/2016 11:14

My personal view from experience is that being able to talk about tough stuff that happened is the basis for being able to deal with it NB I am not saying "get over it" - before you accuse my of that - because that's often not possible.

No I don't think all those other things you suggest I do.

And yes I have experienced abuse & DV. But I still don't see the world exactly as you do.

KatieScarlett · 30/10/2016 11:17

Being able to talk about the hard stuff is indeed best. To a safe person, a compassionate person, a person who has your best interests at heart. That person is never your abuser. Because it's all about them.

ample · 30/10/2016 11:20

No means no - to anything & everything.
YANBU

ocelot7 · 30/10/2016 11:27

There is a lot implied in the OP that we are not really competent to advise on here. Reading it again - the bit where she wonders whether past experience (of which we have no details) is clouding her judgement - is something she needs to work out herself & might best be explored in counselling because we don't know enough to pronounce on it.

The current incident seems to be the tip of the iceberg.

Other posters probably don't agree & that's absolutely fine. But would it be more useful to write something constructive for the OP - who you will note seems to have disappeared - rather than attacking me?

KatieScarlett · 30/10/2016 11:31

I personally am writing to the OP. To let her know this is not OK despite the apologists. To let her know absolutely that she is right. To say as many times as it needs to be said, no means no. No ifs, buts or maybes. No means no.

Mix56 · 30/10/2016 11:33

Don't ring him. (even if its about getting to school, or work clothes) ignore him. He will come back with some lame excuse.
Tell him you do not accept that behaviour in front of the children, & "No" is a complete sentence.
Groping is not loving

Offred · 30/10/2016 11:34

Some people don't feel it is helpful to talk to family members about this stuff.

It is not a requirement even in a wonderfully loving and supportive relationship.

Perhaps you meant well ocelot and to point out that maybe the op hasn't shared with her husband this stuff because she is aware he is not a good man already.

I just don't think you have done this sensitively at all, it did come across as you saying groping is ok unless you have been sexually abused in which case you should dislcose the abuse so the man knows not to grope you - which is incredibly wrong!

Offred · 30/10/2016 11:35

We do know enough to pronounce on it because groping someone is wrong. It is especially wrong when you have been told not to do it to continue.

LyndaNotLinda · 30/10/2016 11:36

It is more useful to write something constructive for the OP, yes.

So I will reiterate - carrottop is not over-reacting because of her past experiences. It is absolutely her right for her to have boundaries about how and where her body is touched and it is absolutely wrong for anyone to feed her anxiety that her husband's reaction was anything other than crap, petulant and childish.

ocelot7 · 30/10/2016 11:45

Offred why would someone would marry someone they knew not to be a good man.

I have striven to be measured in what I say so I hope the OP doesn't think I'm being insensitive. kinda ironic since I have experienced some of this stuff myself.
And I have certainly felt attacked by other posters on this thread!

Offred · 30/10/2016 11:46

Honestly? You are really asking that?!

KatieScarlett · 30/10/2016 11:48

Your views were challenged. Please feel free to report any posts that attacked you personally.

NotYoda · 30/10/2016 11:58

I think this kind of thread is what MN is all about (sadly). It really does highlight, to me, how skewed women's boundaries are; how unsure we are. I have learned a lot on here and it has made me much clearer about my feminism.

I don't want to be presumptious, but offred I think you feel attacked because you are processing experiences and that's uncomfortable. It has happened to me too

NotYoda · 30/10/2016 11:59

... although not about this issue

KatieScarlett · 30/10/2016 12:03

Don't think you mean Offred NotYoda
But you are absolutely right.

NotYoda · 30/10/2016 12:04

Shit, no I meant ocelot

Sorry!

KatieScarlett · 30/10/2016 12:08

It's a bugger when that happens... Grin
Been there, still have the scorch marks...

Offred · 30/10/2016 12:12
Wink
ocelot7 · 30/10/2016 12:13

No actually I have been processing my past for some time.
I have also been bullied quite a lot & now I'm in a better place its easier to spot bullies. And I think how some of you have attacked me on here is just that.

DworkinNineToFive · 30/10/2016 12:20

OP! You are not overreacting at all. Allowing children to witness adult sexual behaviour, including groping breasts, is legally considered a form of child sexual abuse. Not only was that sexual abuse of you, it was a mental and emotional form of sexual abuse of your daughter.

For those who would think this is OTT, ask yourselves how we have come to live in a rape and porn culture. The way that the sexual abuse of women and children has become so prevalent, so common (and so poorly prosecuted) is not because men are all somehow innate rapists who can't understand women's boundaries (because that is actually an incredibly hateful view of men, even while its dressed up as supporting men), but because we have a culture and society which teaches boys that women's bodies are there for them to transgress upon and girls that they must tolerate and allow the transgression and if they don't, tough shit, everyone will support and defend the male. In other words, this stuff starts when kids witness or overhear their father groping their mum and demanding snogs and stuff she doesn't want, when they see their father or other close male relatives and family friends perving at and making comments about women, such as leering over Page 3-type pics or women on telly, or making comments about women in the street. People are so ignorant - often very wilfully so - about how men come to behave in such ways. It's not natural, it's absolutely learned behaviour. And just like one becomes a fluent writer by first learning the simple ABC, misogynists and abusers become fluent in misogyny and abuse by learning the basics when they are children by seeing how the men in their lives behave towards women and girls. Being that way doesn't just magically happen to men at some certain stage in life, such as reaching 18. It's taught.

If men can stop at red lights, not barge into people in their way, wait in a queue, not take a trolley of shopping into a basket-only aisle, not take 3 hours for lunch at work when they only have an hour's allowed break, and so on and so on, then they understand and have respect, boundaries and rules. The idea that they suddenly become incapable of having respect and understanding boundaries and rules and knowing what is appropriate when it comes to women's bodies is absolutely ridiculous. They know full well - they just don't care. Because they learnt as children by witnessing the behaviour of men towards women that they have a right to treat a woman's body like their plaything.

OP, I think these things are no doubt part of how you are feeling what you are feeling. You know it's not only wrong because it's transgressive to you and for your daughter to witness, but because it's a part of a bigger problem of male behaviour. Btw, I think it was actually good you shouted at him in front of her. Seeing such a strong, absolute reaction to that behaviour will have undone some of the damage of seeing her mother groped despite saying no. She now knows that it is not to be accepted.

flumpybear · 30/10/2016 12:27

No way - it teaches your daughter it's ok for that behaviour and your son that he can do it .... it must stop!!

Pisssssedofff · 30/10/2016 12:35

Groping is too much, I think children should see their parents kiss and cuddle though.
Can he really not control himself? I think you need to talk this through

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 30/10/2016 12:52

Great post from Dworkin. The ones earlier from FirsTime made me feel sick to my stomach.

OP - you are most definitely NOT in the wrong and there is no need for you to feel humiliated or embarrassed. Your husband has behaved really badly - and stormed off.

It's HIS behaviour that needs to change, not yours. Thanks