Help! Scaring boyfriend away with marriage talk!

[Mopsy]

This is so embarrassing! I can't confess this to my 'real' friends so I need mumsnetters to come to the rescue please!

Here I am, self-sufficient, happy, stable, independent single mum of two, about to get her act together and go to uni at last. I've had a somewhat chequered relationship history (few relationships but intense and usually long term) and have been seeing a completely wonderful guy for a year. For the first time ever, I feel completely right with him and want so much to commit to spending the rest of my life with him.

He was very hurt when his first marriage ended and says he has built up walls in defence that he may never be able to break down. Before we started seeing eachother he did ask me what I felt about marriage; I replied that I hoped that one day I'd feel right about doing it with someone, but if that person never came along no problems.

So I certainly didn't start out hunting for a husband!

However, since about three months into the relationship I've been convinced that I want to marry him.....and yes I've committed the ultimate 'Rules' sin and have actually asked him(about 3 times!). He's been fairly good natured and brushed it off lightly but it's started to cause problems, for me at least.

I'm starting to feel used, and hurt that he doesn't feel the same as me, and he admits that because of past pain he finds it difficult even to discuss. He's been frightened that I'll leave him to find someone who'll give me what I want, although I've assured him that it's him I want, as dh or dp! But I still can't seem to stop going on about it. I don't care about any details such as dresses or ceremony, I just crave the commitment from him and to be able to proudly say 'this is my dh...'

Am I being a pathetic romantic fantasist? What were your experiences of knowing you'd found 'the one'? Please, any suggestions on how to calm down and preserve my otherwise happy relationship very welcome.

many thanks, Mopsy

Any takers? Am I being a complete arse? Would esp like to hear SimonHoward's view from a man's perspective.

Thanks

Mopsy

Mopsy, you are not being pathetic but perhaps a little romantic fantasist - you are obviously very much in love with him and feel that marriage will give you a happy ending to your love story. Ultimately what is important is the quality of your relationship. I guess given that you have asked him 3 times, its probably a test of your "marriage-vow" to compromise for a while. Try to respect the pain of his past experiences and tell him you understand his fears and perhaps ask him to help you not to take his anti-marriage views personally. It may help him open up about his fears. Try to make it less difficult for him to discuss it by re-assuring him that you know that marriage is not the be-all and end-all but you need some "other" evidence of his commitment and because he won't discuss it, you can't but help take it personally - tell him you don't want to be obsessed with the idea of marriage and ask for an open discussion about your relationship and together finding ways to express your commitment to each other in other ways. I hope the minute you back off the subject of marriage and concentrate more on what re-assurances you both need, he will open up. Don't spoil your enjoyment of the relationship by obsessing about it. Hope this helps, easier said than done, I know, but believe me I know more "long term partner" couples surviving happily than married couples. Good luck.

Hi Mopsy
I agree with Riya, she's made some good points in her post. Also thought I would let you know that my dh was newly separated when we met, and we clicked immediately and began a serious relationship. The problem was, he didn't want to discuss the prospect of marriage and it was definitely something I wanted. I waited for FIVE years and still he didn't seem to want to commit to getting married, although we were living together. So I guess I reached a point where I thought "bugger it", so I moved into a flat with a friend. I told him I needed time to myself because I didn't feel the relationship was going anywhere. Anyway he was so panicked by the fact that he thought he'd lost the relationship, he couldn't wait to get married... we got married in 1992 and have now been together 15 years. It wasn't as 'scary' as he thought it would be!! Sorry for raving on but I think sometimes the answer with men is to act 'cool' (even if you feel quite desperate) and not come across like you're obsessed with them... perhaps now that he knows how you feel, you may just have to see what happens. Obviously if it doesn't go the way you want it to, you may have to re-consider the relationship again in the future... I know it can be difficult. Hope everything works out for you.

Mopsy

I had a similar experience. Dw decided after about 2 weeks that I was hers and that she was not letting me get away, she did however wait for 6 months before she admitted that she had no intention of getting her own place (she had moved into my flat with me as a temporary measure while she sorted her finances out - god was I blind) and that she wanted to be with me forever.

Be gentle with him, I know that in his place I would not be very happy with someone chasing me to marry them no matter how much I loved them.

I too had not had much luck in relationships and had something like the Berlin Wall up where commitment was concerned. 10 years without any sort of relationship after my 1st ever one at the age of 17 went sour did not make things easy, but she decided I was worth it (at the time I was not so sure that I was).

In the end though it was me that popped the question. We went out to buy a drill and came back engaged, never did get the drill. We couldn't get married straight off though as dw was still married.

I have to admit that the reason I did ask her (and she does know this) is that it made her feel more secure in the relationship. To me it is a bit of paper, nothing more. It didn't make me love her any more or less and you may find you dp feels the same way.

Also one of the absolute terrors that most of the single guys I have known fear the most is a single mother looking for someone to help support their kids. In most cases this is not the case but where I live has a large amount of young single mothers that almost seem desperate for a man to help pay the bills and it does really put guys off. Even if you have never said or thought about that sort of thing I would be willing to bet that in the back of every guys mind when they enter a relationship with a single mother that the thought is there.

If he loves you that much then do you really need to get married? How about getting engaged with a view to talking about marriage in a year or two?

You didn't mention how old your children are or if he lives with you currently so I don't know if those could be factors in not wanting to commit.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to advise me about this. You have illuminated some important facts and ideas I had completely overlooked or not considered.

Simon, I think dp has a very similar attitude to you about marriage, and has even said that surely it is more meaningful that a couple maintain a healthy relationship when they could so easily walk away. I know what he means, but maybe us women are just 'conditioned' to see marriage as the ultimate achievement in securing a happy partnership. Hearing about your experience is really helpful.

All in all I guess it boils down to the usual.....talking! thanks, Mopsy

Mopsy

Glad I could help.

It took a close friend of mine to get me to start talking about things just before I met my dw otherwise I don't think she'd have decided to keep me.

One thing I have learned though is try to get him alone for the talking, no parents, kids, friends or any phones (mobile or otherwise).

Get him out to somewhere where you can talk without distraction. Or get all the distractions removed for a few hours by a friend or relative so you can talk at home.

This has worked for me and for some of my friends who went through similar problems.

Simon - interested in your comments about single mothers. As one, I am pretty paranoid about coming over as looking for a meal-ticket and, in fact, think I come across as a bit too independent and aloof. Any tips on striking the right balance?

< Oh this is so handy having access to an agony uncle like this>

Maybe you need a little more time in your relationship. Three months is not a whole of time when involved in a relationship. Maybe he needs more time to see that your not going anywhere. I realize people are getting married pretty early in a relationship but your db might need more time as an individual. Wait a few more months then see how things are going. I would not keep bringing it up because you might literally scare him right out the door and I mean that in a serious way. Men sometimes tend to get that way more then women. Just keep in mind you have not been in your relationship for a long time allthough it may seem like you know each other that well. Good Luck.

Tinker

Not sure that there is any standard sort of balance as it really depends on the man in question.

My bil met a sm shortly after splitting up from his wife. She had a son at that time and she didn't overtly push that she needed help in any way that I could see, or even to try to lure him in (she did lure and catch him though and they now have twins). So it can work, but if you push it you will drive guys away very quickly. I don't like that it does this but most men really have a phobia about being taken for a ride so that someone elses kids can get a beeter standard of living. This was one reason I never dated any single mums, I got close but never went through with it.

On the other hand coming over as too independant might make it seem as if you are only interested in guys for the odd building job and a good time at the weekends.

There are a large number of guys that would be up for that sort of relationship if my friends when I was younger are anything to go by (god I'm sounding old).

The best bet as far as I can see is to do the independant thing upto a point, but get them involved in the bigger things where you would possibly ask a g/f for help.

There are a few things not to ask a guy to help out with though, leg waxing as most men equate it with torture, clothes shopping (unless it is lingerie) or working out what shoes to wear with what dress as both of these put most guys to sleep faster than watching '1 man and his dog' and finally sitting down to watch back to back slushy films.

If you can find a guy that likes to do these things then go for it, you'd be the envy of all your female friends.

Tinker, As you know, not a great success story myself at getting boyfriends worth having, but I do believe that there is no point in eating yourself up, trying to act in a false way, ie clingy, not clingy, independent, not independent. Most of my professional female friends without children complain that men are intimidated and put off by their independence. One friend pretended to be a hairdresser in order to pull and had to keep acting up all weekend! Do you want to get in a relationship where you are constantly pretending?

Cityfreak - agree, wouldn't want to act a certain way at all. Just think that is the way I come across naturally - at first. Just 'concerned' about Simon's comments about making a deliberate choice NOT to date single mothers.

Tinker, Simon, everyone... I have just begun a really good relationship with a lovely man and have a dd of 2. Now, I may be accused of being a romantic like Mopsy here (and I have no real defence!) BUT surely if its meant to be its meant to be??!! All this talk of 'luring' and 'catching' men seems to be totally out of whack with my concept of what love and relationships are all about... Its not that I don't have fears about it all, like Mopsy, but I hope that if he wants to be with me and dd then money issues can be sorted out along the way as part of the course...

Lizzer - couldn't agree more. But it was the deliberate avoidance of sm's that puzzled me.

Tinker

The main reasons I avoided single mothers was that I didn't want to be trapped into paying for someone elses children and that I wasn't ready for children (I don't think I am now and dd is here, but then who is every totally ready?).

To many young single mothers where I live see a single guy with a good job as a meal ticket, which totally put me off.

I have since met a number of single mothers who are older in social situations and I have gotten on with them just fine and it has changed my views a bit. The problem is that every single male friend I have when asked why they shy away from single mothers has said the same thing, they have this image of just being someones meal ticket.

To be honest if I had not met my dw I would probably have ended up dating an older sm, or even one with grown up children, as then the pregnancy and child birth bit would have been taken care of already (one attempt by dw to snap my wrist was enough).

Mopsy - I mentioned meeting my dh on the thread started by cityfreak because I met him via an ad in Private Eye - what I didn't go into because it wasn't particularly relevant is that altho' I too had decided I wanted to marry him within 3 months of being together ( despite him being very different to all my preconceptions of who I would want to marry!) it took him a year from that time to actually propose. I never asked him ( too much of a coward!) tho I did push towards moving in together and then buying a house together ( just before he asked me to marry him) I also walked up a ridiculous amount of big hills etc( he's very into that sort of strenuous exercise - I'm not under usually circumstances!) in the mistaken hope that he might ask me ''the question'' at the top -he didn't but we laugh about it now!
When he finally did ask me and I was able to say '' why did it take you so long'' he explained that his former fiancee who had been very very unfaithful to him just made him hang back even tho he had thought for a long time that he did want to spend the rest of his life with me - becasue he'd thought it with her and been so ''wrong'' - a classic once bitten twice shy.

From what you said this may well be the case for your dp - so just do your very best to back off and bite your lip and be patient - the main thing is that you have him now - frustrating as it is ( I DO remember !) try and live for the moment - AND relish the intensity of your feelings- that may seem a bizarre thing to say but security inevitably(?) takes the edge off of the intensity IMO - one wouldn't want to live with the anguish forever just to experience the intensity - but do try to ''appreciate'' the positives of your situation while you have to!

Mopsy, I think you just have to accept that some people are just not 'into' marriage. I decided long ago that I didn't want to get married and I met my partner and I love him so much and I never felt like that about any (of quite a few!!) men I had dated before. I think the marriage thing is a little bit of an issue for him, he talks about it a bit and we just say 'maybe one day ...' with probably both of us not really thinking we'll actually do it. What he did do for my 30th though was got me a really nice ring and I chose to wear it on my wedding ring finger so sort of show him I was committed in my own way. I have another friend in a long term relationship with a child and they, several years ago, also exchanged rings and both still wear them. Maybe this could be something you could consider and then suggest?

When I met my dh it was love pretty much at first sight, very passionate, both of us pretty sure this was the one within the first week, off on holiday together within three weeks. HOWEVER, dh was very insistent that he wanted to be the one to ask - I think a lot of men feel like this. It's the traditional role and I think many men feel emasculated if women propose/constantly ask them to 'talk about commitment'. I think the latter phrase, particularly, makes a lot of men shiver with horror. He hated me raising the subject so I just had to shut up, stop 'casually' speculating about rings and dresses and get on with things while he thoroughly enjoyed his sneaky planning. I actually would have preferred to choose my own ring but he so wanted to surprise me that I let him do it all his own way (it's nice, actually, very modern and minimalist from a trendy designer jeweller) - and he proposed one Christmas morning about 18months after we met when we were already living together. I think most men would be afraid of rushing into things too fast and a year really isn't very long nowadays. Another friend of mine was with her dh for eight years before they got married. Despite the fact they lived together he was really stalling on the marriage front, and in the end she moved out and got on with her life. She made it clear that she wanted to get married one day and wouldn't be happy with a relationship that offered less, but didn't propose or anything. Within 3 months she had the rock of Gibraltar on her finger and was planning their wedding. He was phobic about weddings (something to do with his parents' marriage, I think) but was terrified about what he'd nearly lost. He now loves being married and goes on and on about his 'wonderful wife'. But remember, they'd been together for seven years before the wedding, which I think is very different to a year. Maybe you should just chill, stop mentioning it at all and let him have the chance to surprise you - you never know, he might be planning that all along and every time you ambush him you spoil the 'surprise'!

Simon Howard, I cannot let this..."I have since met a number of single mothers who are older in social situations and I have gotten on with them just fine and it has changed my views a bit..." go!!

I am a young single mother (gasp!) I am on (shock horror) income support. I know a few other people in a similar situation. I can speak for them and myself in stating that no-one I know would EVER look on a man as a 'meal ticket.' Now, I obviously can't make judgements on the 'older' (by older, do mean wiser? more mature? less liekly to steal your wallet?) SM's you have met, but as for the younger ones, can you elaborate on how they go around ensnaring innocent men, making them pay for their children and ensuring they never have to work again??!

Everyone I know in my boat are mainly there as the useless prats that are their children's fathers are so rubbish they have had to leave them to regain a life for their children and themselves. I have seen women (including myself) worry that they will never be able to trust a man again, let alone plan a military strategy to capture and bleed dry! Sorry for the intensified language but really, Simon Howard, 'we' the young single mothers, the curse of modern society, the nation's embarrasing statistic are not like you describe at all! In my circle I see women who strive to create enviroments to bring up their children in the best way they can. By working part-time, by staying at home, by studying, like myself, and hoping to increase chances of long term employability and securing a graduate wage on completion (whatever guarantee that is!)
Yeah, don't get me wrong I'd love a nice car, a beautiful house, a holiday in a dim and distant land, but trying to get a man to fund all this had never crossed my mind... Even now, when I feel the relationship that I'm in is going brilliantly, I pay for half of everything although he earns much much more than me. Maybe I do this to prove a point, that I'm not after anything but his affection and attention, but really I have to think what I want MY daughter to think of me in the future. Do I want her to think that I did nothing when she was growing up? Hmm, great role model there. OR do I want her to have respect for me and think, 'ok so my dad wasn't too great, but my mum more than made up for it' ?!
Sorry, but this subject is too close to the bone for me to be quiet, I know I look like a hopeless statistic on paper but I can just thank the heavens that not everyone is so damningly judgemental of my motivations for wanting a relationship as you, simon...

(Phew, bit of a rant there, haven't had one for ages so am glad of the chance really )

Way to go, Lizzer. Dd is a lucky little girl.

Lizzer, I am glad that you have had your rant and I agree with you. You only have to look at the money, power and stay-at-home mothers discussion to see that questions of whose money is whose, who is and is not prepared to share, and who would like a man to take part in sharing (life, and parenthood rather than just money!) are not issues exclusive to lone mothers. I also get really annoyed about the attitude, "Older mother good, sensible, financially stable, young mother bad, feckless, financial disaster." While it is often true that older women are financially more established, there are all kinds of advantages in being a younger mother, including for mother and baby's health. Being a good parent is more than having lots of money to spend. If I met a partner who already had children, I would not be thinking of them as "his" and counting how much I spent on "another woman's" children. I think that if Lizzer's boyfriend is a nice man, he would eventually want to share all of her life with her, and I would not see anything wrong in him paying more than a half share, including for "her" child, if he earns more than her. The difference is that after her previous experiences, Lizzer is more likely to see the value of her own financial autonomy and independence than someone who had never had to manage on her own. I think SimonHoward's friends might be missing out on fulfilling relationship by being so scared of women!

Lizzer and any other ladies I have upset.

Please accept my appologies, it has never been my intention to cause upset about this.

Maybe I should have made things a bit clearer, almost all of the younger sm's that I and friends have known do not work full time, few of them part time and the majority are usually on benefit.

The reason I have these views is from having friends who did end up being looked at as a meal tickets. I can only go by my own experiences.

Now I know that not all young sm's are out for a meal ticket, infact I realise nowadays that the great majority of single mothers whether younger or older are not, that they want a relationship with someone that they can care about and be loved by.

The problem is that the image of the younger sm out for a man to pay for things is firmly embedded in mens minds (at least the ones I know).

If this is not the common conception then either my friends have just been unlucky or I live in a strange area.

SimonHoward, I think money is ALWAYS on men's minds, whether there's a single mother around or not!! Lol. The first thing my dh was worried about when he found out I was pregnant was the 'COST'. He would moan about things like "Now I'm going to be working for another 20 years to support another child and put another child through school." (he has 2 kids from first marriage), and "The only thing I'm good for is to earn money, to support everyone else. I'm just the MONEY EARNER." We had been married for about eight years at this point... I can understand how men feel pressured when they have a family to support, but I didn't hear the end of it for quite a while. He loves his little ds now that he's here, but still likes to gripe about money every now and again...

LiamsMum

I am taking the 5th on this and every other question about men moaning how much children cost.

Wow, this thread is such interesting insight on modern life. I think everyone's contributions have been absolutely fascinating, no need for apologies.
Just to add, from my own observation, I think some women do regard men as slaves who'll spend a lifetime working to support them, but you can't say that a single mother is more or less likely to be one of these. It depends on the person's character, not how many children she's already got.

Mopsy ? there is nothing wrong with wanting to get married or asking someone. I am sure your dp is very flattered. I would say that a year still isn?t long enough to consider marriage but you should be able to talk to him about it as a possibility in the near future. When you ask him does he definitely say ?no? or will he just not talk about it at all? I think he should give you some sort of idea of where the relationship is going. Not talking about things doesn?t help anyone.

Just a few points you may like to make to him ?

? It is not marriage itself that is wrong/bad so getting married won?t mean that everything will go wrong just because it did before. It is the persons concerned that make the marriage work (or not). You are not the same person as his ex so what went before won?t automatically happen again. I assume he doesn?t think it was all his fault ? even if he does then he should look at how well he is getting on with you (something I had to remind my husband)
? It?s not fair on you for him to form views on his current relationship on something that happened in the past with another person. He should be looking at the present and future and what qualities you have together as a couple.
? He is contradicting himself to say he is afraid to lose you but at the same time to be unable to make some sort of commitment. On the one hand he wants to ?keep? you but on the other providing you with no idea of how long or in what form of relationship (I assume you haven?t agreed to live together long term either). Why not get engaged and if it all goes wrong it doesn?t matter ? an engagement breaking up isn?t so harmful as an actual marriage.

Simon ? not all men and women are the same! My DH likes shopping, not for clothes though and I also HATE clothes shopping. He likes to do food shopping and does a ?big shop? after work every fortnight. Also he has a thing about shoes having to go with the right trousers and it drives me mad when we are about to go out and he has to look for the right pair! Anyway this is probably another debate ...
.