Help! Scaring boyfriend away with marriage talk!

[Mopsy]

This is so embarrassing! I can't confess this to my 'real' friends so I need mumsnetters to come to the rescue please!

Here I am, self-sufficient, happy, stable, independent single mum of two, about to get her act together and go to uni at last. I've had a somewhat chequered relationship history (few relationships but intense and usually long term) and have been seeing a completely wonderful guy for a year. For the first time ever, I feel completely right with him and want so much to commit to spending the rest of my life with him.

He was very hurt when his first marriage ended and says he has built up walls in defence that he may never be able to break down. Before we started seeing eachother he did ask me what I felt about marriage; I replied that I hoped that one day I'd feel right about doing it with someone, but if that person never came along no problems.

So I certainly didn't start out hunting for a husband!

However, since about three months into the relationship I've been convinced that I want to marry him.....and yes I've committed the ultimate 'Rules' sin and have actually asked him(about 3 times!). He's been fairly good natured and brushed it off lightly but it's started to cause problems, for me at least.

I'm starting to feel used, and hurt that he doesn't feel the same as me, and he admits that because of past pain he finds it difficult even to discuss. He's been frightened that I'll leave him to find someone who'll give me what I want, although I've assured him that it's him I want, as dh or dp! But I still can't seem to stop going on about it. I don't care about any details such as dresses or ceremony, I just crave the commitment from him and to be able to proudly say 'this is my dh...'

Am I being a pathetic romantic fantasist? What were your experiences of knowing you'd found 'the one'? Please, any suggestions on how to calm down and preserve my otherwise happy relationship very welcome.

many thanks, Mopsy

Well said Lizzer, I couldn't have put it better!

Eulalia - thanks for your insightful points. I recall from another thread that you and your dh were both previously married and had to overcome some issues to get where you are now, so your input feels especially valuable.

We have talked more, and dp said all kinds of lovely things to demonstrate how much he loves me, does not want anyone else and loves being with me as much as possible whether doing the washing up or going out somewhere exciting. He feels that all of those things apply whether married or not so what's the point?

I think I will bring it up once more and suggest engagement as a 'middle way' and see what happens. Thanks for all your help, Mopsy

Mopsy I really feel for you about your situation as I am in an almost identical one. I met dp as he was coming out of a 10 year relationship (they fizzled out because neither wanted to progress to marriage/children and ended up living completely seperate lives). We have been together 2 years and have an 8 month old dd, I have no doubts that he loves me as he tells me every day and he says that he has never been so happy. But (isn't there always a but) he won't marry me, when we talk about it he says we will get married someday but he can't put a time frame on it. He says its the biggest decision he will ever make, well call me stupid but I assumed the decision to have our beautiful dd took that honour. I feel like we, meaning I talk about it every few months and then he happily burys his head in the sand in the hope I will forget about it. But I can't because it hurts me so much to know that he isn't as sure about me as I am about him. So any suggestions on how to get through it without me punching him which is what I feel like doing at the moment would be great.

thanks

Peanut
Yep I know exactly how you feel and doesn't it suck! I hope that some of the great advice given to me on this thread can help you too.
Sorry SimonH but GRRRR MEN!!!!

Mopsy

I'm sorry that I have been a fly in the ointment but after reading this thread through a few times I started to think maybe it was only myself and my friends that had this view and that I had been gravely mistaken in my views.

To test the theory I asked a number of friends and collegues about what was being discussed here, I made sure to include a wide range of people from all sorts of back grounds so that I wouldn't bias it by them only being close friends and none of them had been asked about this by me before.

Some were married, some seperated, some have married sms and one is about to become an older sm.

The overwhelming response was that men tend to view sm's overall and young sm's especially, rightly or wrongly, as looking for a meal ticket when they were looking for a man. The older female friend who is about to become an sm said that that was one thing she had really worried about was that men would look at her that way and one of my collegues who married an older sm said that he'd not have gone for a younger sm because of this idea of them being after a meal ticket.

Now having read everyone here's responses I will have to try to re-educate my friends as to the realities of the situation but until that works then this idea of the sm looking for a meal ticket will persist.

A question I have to ask of you ladies though is why is getting married so important? I have asked my dw and gotten a load of answers that are all based around emotions, which I have to say I did find rather baffeling, and none at all based around logic or reason. I know she was happier being married than just living in sin but I never saw any difference to how things were at home after we tied the knot.

DH would have quite happily lived together, had kids etc..without getting married. It was me who pushed for that. I know many of his friends have married for similar reasons-the blokes are quite happy living together, the women want marriage. Had to laugh at simon's comments about"emotional" reasons, seem to remember Dh saying something similar about there being no "logical/rational"reason to do it.

Angharad

Your dh sounds to be a very good man.

He has his moments!

simonhoward - it's all about committment. My dh didn't belive in marriage, and felt committed by buying a house with me, but I never felt that it was the ultimate committment. I wanted him to stand in front of our friends and family and say that he intended to be with me all our lives. I know that it does not mean that we will not split up, but I feel different. I have never found a logical reason for marriage either emotionally or financially, but I just feel different being Mrs than Miss. I don't think that makes me shallow, and I did wait 10 years before giving an ultimatum!!

Also, I wanted my dh to marry me because after 10 years together, I wanted children. I don't judge people who have children out of marriage, but felt that it was right for me to be married. Luckily dh agreed in that respect. We have now been married nearly 3 years. He doesn't feel any different, and I do, so both of us are happy!

SimonHoward,

I think the people you asked are fogetting about the personality and individuality and are guilty of tarring with the same brush !

RE: Getting married. Everyone has their own opinions, some don't want to others do. In answer to your question why, I think (and this is a bit of sweeping statement so excuse me all !) that most women dream of getting married and have done since they were tiny and were dressing up as a bride.

For my part, I although divorced once, said I'd never marry again but when my husband asked me I just felt yes was the right answer. I am very happy now and am glad that I have 'promised' to spend the rest of my life with him and fully intend to honour that promise.

In terms of committment, having a child together is a far greater committment in my view so I can't see what there is to be frightened about.

Simon although there are for me a great deal of emotional reasons for wanting marriage there are also the practical ones such as dp not having any legal parental rights (ie. he could not sign any medical consent forms in an emergency)and if anything were to happen to either of us we are not as partners recognised as legal next of kin for each other. So for the peace of mind you have a choice between marriage or making wills and drafting up legal contracts giving you both all the rights. I've got to say I prefer the marriage option.

Have to say that my First Communion at 7y gave me the dressing up opportunity so I didn't have any urge to "be a bride"! I just felt that marriage was more definite (at least in my head) and that if DH was as unconcerned about it as he said, and as committed as he said, he shouldn't have a problem with it! Luckily he agreed eventually!

Ladies

Thankyou for clearing up, somewhat, my confusion on the marriage bit. I know understand the answers dw gave me a bit better.

TillysMummy

As for my friends tarring sms with the same brush I have to agree.
I have no problem admitting that my views seem to have been misguided and having now been shown the error of my ways I will try to change them.

No, you do seem to recognise that SimonHoward I agree, and we are all often guilty of sweepting statements, myself, often !

Marriage is different things to different people. I didn't marry second time for the big white wedding, first time I was a little guilty of this I think now I look back, but more for the love, security, and wanting to publicly make a promise and statement of my love.

Simonhoward- with this..."I have no problem admitting that my views seem to have been misguided and having now been shown the error of my ways I will try to change them"...you are absolutely forgiven!!!

Actually you have done me a service by pointing out this point of view that I, in my naivety perhaps, had really not taken into account. I won't say that I've never thought that having a relationship as a SM isn't fraught with difficulties (and have bunged up many a thread on here with my desparate ramblings!) but money, hmmm... I guess I don't value money so highly, it comes and it goes. To me it is transient and therefore I cannot ever think of anyone viewing money with as much thought as to cloud there judgement over a person. Saying that if I thought someone was seriously trying to rip me off then I'd not be happy! Simonhoward, I reckon your friends may be earning enough to warrant the term "mo' money, mo' troubles"

Lizzer

Thanks. I have to admit it was nice for someone to argue so strongly for the side of the sm's as without you I'd still be deluded concerning all sm's (some people still say I am deluded normally but that's just me being me).

One question I have to ask you, and any others with experience in this area, is how do you manage to survive, with a family, on such a low income?

I live in a fairly expensive area of the country and even trying to live without children is sometimes difficult. Untill recently dw and I had to rent out 1 or more rooms to make ends meet.

It had taken me 14 years of full time work till I felt I was in a suitable position financially to afford to think about children.

Maybe my expected standard of living is higher than it should be because I have managed to work my way up to a fairly well paid job and have always set goals for myself that forced me to try to improve on the conditions my parents were in when I was young.

Thinking about it that could well be why I had the meal ticket view in the first place, I know how much it costs for a single person or even a childless couple that are both working, so the cost of raising a child on your own and possibly without work must be terrible.

Afraid I am guilty of always managing to spend everything and I earn a good part time salary and my husband earns a good salary. My mum used to survive with us on 14k a year so god knows how she did it (although it was 10 years ago !). It seems the more dh and I earn the more we spend.

Actually, wishful thinking there, more like 15 years ago !!!

Simon - I think marriage works on several levels.

I think apart from all the obvious things such as making a commitment to someone else it works on a more personal level. For me it was about making a decision just for myself to stick with one person. Externalising it in the form of marriage helped me to feel more secure that I'd made a choice about how my life was going... rahter than just drifting along as I was before.

We also decided to do it in conjunction with having a child and DH was just as keen as me, if not more so.

The ceremony part of the marriage is important in just the same way as any of the ceremonies we go through in life ... graduations, christening, retirements etc. You would feel a bit miffed if someone just shook your hand after 50 years in a job and that was it. No we have a ceremony with speeches, presents, party etc ... same with a wedding. And just think of all the certificates we collect over our life for various achievements, exams, qualifications and so on - the marriage certificate is on one level 'just a piece of paper' but it represents much more.

We wouldn't think of giving up all these other examples I've given so why marriage?

Also marriage brings the family together under one name (if they wish) which can help form a sense of mutual identity.

Just a few things off the top of my head ....

Eulalia

Thanks for this.

It is all becoming a bit clearer now.

I have to admit that I don't really go in for ceremonies of any sort unless pushed. Birthdays and Xmas are just another day to me which drives dw up the wall at times, and I have never seen the point really of going to a great fuss to show what already is, whether emotionally or otherwise.

If I have feelings for someone or something then they will know about it but I don't see the point in having a big show. It must sound a bit boring and very unemotional but that is just me.

Your explanation does give me something to work on as I am frequently baffled by some peoples need to demonstrate their level of feeling for someone or something.

Can I just put in a vote for a girl who didn't dream of marriage!

Hmmm, I'm feeling really crap again.

Dp invited me, ds and dd to spend half term with him and his dd, going camping somewhere. I politely refused, which he didn't understand at all, and pressured me to explain myself - I could see he was taking it personally (as you would).

So I was honest and told him that spending a lovely week away 'en famille' would, for me, it would constitute a tantalising fuelling of my fantasy of us being like that all the time, and I just know that when we returned, he'd go home, I'd go home, and I'd feel really, really flat and miserable.

I feel I'm being stupid, self-sacrificing and cutting off my nose to spite my face, but I know that I will be so upset when we come back that I just can't face it!

He seemed quite shocked - he had imagined all sorts of possible reasons why I didn't want to go, but not this one.

An old schoolfriend of his, dw and 4 children will be there too, and dp moaned about not being able to 'show me off' - yes we've been through that one before! (And believe me, I'm no oil painting as they say!!)

That really pisses me off; as Eulalia says, he wants to keep me but on his terms. I came home and had to cry because I am wondering if I should end the relationship........for me it seems to have reached a point where if he continues to refuse to acknowledge and accept my needs it will have to be over.

I guess him going away for a week will give us both time and space to think, I'm crying again just at the thought of not being with him anymore, I don't know what to do, Mopsy x

Mopsey, I have read throughthis thread with real interest and I am so sorr for you. In some ways I feel that yes, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face, as you said. As he might have seen it like he said 'as showing you off'. In his way that probably was a sign of a big committment, and his way of saying how much he loves you. A week away 'en famille' could be just what he needs to see how fantastic it would be if you got married.

However I also understand how you feel about being used, and undervalued. 'If he really loved me, he'd marry me'. However I am sure that (perhaps our resident agony uncle would agree here) the more pressure you put on the more he will back off. You have to decide if you love him, and if the relationship is important enough, I wouldn't split just because he won't marry you. In past posts you say how much he means to you, try to go with the flow a bit and enjoy the relationship, the minute you do this he'll probably commit. Most men like to do this under their own steam (I CAVEMAN!!) and will get their in their own sweet time.

Please please relax, and try to discuss it rationally with him. Any chance of explaining, as objectivly as possible how you feel and how important it is to you. But at the same time asking him to tell you how he really feels. He may just need time, he may never want to marry again, but if he is so wonderful I doubt he's using you, he just can't communicate how he truely feels in a way that you can understand.

It took me 2 years to get my DH to propose, I knew on the first night!! He needed to be sure. I am very lucky because all our families and freinds are also happily married, an I really believe in the whole business of marriage. For me, like you Mopsey it is about security.

SimonHoward, you asked why marriage is important for women, I can only answer for myself, but here goes. When DH stood up infront of nearly 200 people and commited to me, I felt that I was truely worth something. Since (to me) DH is the best thing since sliced bread, and he publically announced he thought I was too, it gave me aninner feeling of real self-worth. It has always felt different from the very minute we were married, and it gave me an inner sence of confidence that has meant I can do anything I set my mind to. Does that sound odd? I know for him it can be the same, so some men also belive in marriage too.

Mopsy I don't think you should give up on the relationship yet either - going away together might have cemented his feelings towards you even further. Some men are just overly cautious, I know this from my own dh. He didn't want to get married and then he didn't want to have a child, because he didn't know how it would affect everything. He assumed a child would 'wreck our lifestyle' and drive a wedge between us so he chose just chose not consider it. (We finally had a ds and everything has worked out fine). So sometimes I think men just 'err on the side of caution'. I totally understand your frustration but I think you should hang in there a bit longer, he may just need a bit more time. Do you think you could tactfully say to him "I'd really like to spend my life with you and I'm willing to wait for a while, but if nothing has happened by ........ , I'll have to reconsider the relationship." Good luck Mopsy.

SimonHoward marriage is also important to some women because they simply don't believe in living together - they may have religious beliefs and they wouldn't feel right having a relationship & children etc without a formal commitment. This is how I felt and I know some of my friends felt the same way. The 'act of marriage' is seen as a true commitment by both people to each other. (MY opinion - I know not everyone will agree!)

LiamsMum and Crunchie

Thanks for the response.

I hadn't thought about the religious side of things as most of my friends are either not religious or fairly anti-religious (that includes dw as well).

As for the feeling worth something Crunchie, why would it take standing up in front of others and telling each other how much you wish to commit yourself to the other one to make you feel worthwhile? Please don't take this the wrong way but why do you need someone else to feel worthwhile?

Simon - you may not be interested in ceremonies but I bet you enjoy them when someone else organises them. I am sure if others took you at your word and never gave you any birthday or Christmas presents you'd soon miss them!

I think some occasions such as these are overdone and certainly DH and I don't bother with Valentines day as we feel it is just a marketing ploy to get people to buy expensive flowers and cards. Then there always seems to be some special day or week to mark something - its all gone a bit mad and spoils important ceremonies like marriage. Maybe it is the big fuss aspect of it that puts people like you off but of course it doesn't have to be like that (we only had 2 witnesses at our marriage and no guests)