Help! Scaring boyfriend away with marriage talk!

[Mopsy]

This is so embarrassing! I can't confess this to my 'real' friends so I need mumsnetters to come to the rescue please!

Here I am, self-sufficient, happy, stable, independent single mum of two, about to get her act together and go to uni at last. I've had a somewhat chequered relationship history (few relationships but intense and usually long term) and have been seeing a completely wonderful guy for a year. For the first time ever, I feel completely right with him and want so much to commit to spending the rest of my life with him.

He was very hurt when his first marriage ended and says he has built up walls in defence that he may never be able to break down. Before we started seeing eachother he did ask me what I felt about marriage; I replied that I hoped that one day I'd feel right about doing it with someone, but if that person never came along no problems.

So I certainly didn't start out hunting for a husband!

However, since about three months into the relationship I've been convinced that I want to marry him.....and yes I've committed the ultimate 'Rules' sin and have actually asked him(about 3 times!). He's been fairly good natured and brushed it off lightly but it's started to cause problems, for me at least.

I'm starting to feel used, and hurt that he doesn't feel the same as me, and he admits that because of past pain he finds it difficult even to discuss. He's been frightened that I'll leave him to find someone who'll give me what I want, although I've assured him that it's him I want, as dh or dp! But I still can't seem to stop going on about it. I don't care about any details such as dresses or ceremony, I just crave the commitment from him and to be able to proudly say 'this is my dh...'

Am I being a pathetic romantic fantasist? What were your experiences of knowing you'd found 'the one'? Please, any suggestions on how to calm down and preserve my otherwise happy relationship very welcome.

many thanks, Mopsy

Oh dear Mopsy I do feel for you! I think you are over-dwelling on this ... go on your holiday and enjoy ... As Crunchie says this experience could show your dp what it feels like to be a family. It is early days yet but perhaps a good talk is needed and some sort of time scale needed so you both know where you stand.

Eulalia

I have spent many, many years convincing family and friends to stop sending me presents and cards for birthdays and xmas because I didn't want them and wasn't interested. It has taken a while but I have managed to whittle it down to a hard core of people who won't stop (I can't really tell my grandmother off now can I?).

As for celebrations I think the last time one was organised for me was my 6th birthday. I don't even go to any family events unless I can find no way out of them and get the usual emotional blackmail attempts by my mother or dw. To be honest I find events and celebrations of any sort usually rather tedious and dull.

I know this is very selfish of me but I at least let people know that I am like this so they are not put out by me not turning up or accepting. I do make up for it in the fact that I have never stopped my dw from attending any of them, and she frequently goes to family events her family are holding but I made it clear to her from the start of the relationship that I was like this.

As for the fuss and expensive of it all I will admit to thinking that most celebrations of any sort nowadays are over hyped and very commercialised and the expense that some people go to is just stupid (a boss of mine spent £30K on the wedding and honeymoon).

Simon - you sound a bit like my husband. He complains about family events but does usually enjoy them when he gets there. Pardon me for asking but don't people call you a party pooper or is it just the birthday/Xmas things you don't like? I mean would you go to a housewarming party or an office leaving 'do' for example. Come on you must celebrate something sometimes surely?! ;-)

Hi Mopsy, I agree with everyone who says back off and try to let it lie for a while: 1 year isn't a long time in relationship terms, even if you do know he's The One.

I also understand though why you don't feel like going on this holiday out of spite/anger (for want of better words) - I do know the feeling. When I met dp I thought he was The One but there was no way I was going to let him know it until he had too! I also did the "if you're not staying the night, please don't bother coming over" since it made me angry when he did this (he lived a way away) and it just wasn't worth the joy of seeing him because of the agony and annoyance when he had to leave before I felt the night was over IYKWIM!

So I'd say stick to your guns about the holiday since if you feel like this you won't enjoy it anyway (IMO and E) but try to stop going on about marriage.

Whilst I think a lot of self help books (The Rules in particular drives me mad) are a load of anti-femininst nonsense, I do think that what John Gray says in Men are from Mars (I know, I know, contradicting myself slightly here) about men being like elastic bands in terms of committment and intimacy is true. He says (I paraphrase) that once a man has got really close to you he then needs to stretch away for a while before he comes back. Mmmm. Not entirely sure but I know that when I was in similar position, (I knew he was The One, dp hadn't realised yet and was being quite casual), me backing off, going away a lot without him, being independent, busy, including him less made him come running. I'm not advocating game playing, but there's nothing wrong with the odd tactical move IMO!
Good luck.

DIVORCE!!! That is why many people ( men and women) don't want to get married.I am astonished at the disengenuity( is that a word?) of some of these posts. Those of you in relationships where one or both of you are divorced going on about getting married so you can tell the world "this is the one" IT ONLY WORKS THE FIRST TIME AROUND!!!
I was married. We were madly in love for five years, everything went pear - shaped, we got divorced.THAT is why I don't want to get married again.It could never be that good, and if it was I would not trust it to last.
I heard Kevin Costner say in an interview recently ( he is divorced) " It's not that I don't want to get married again. I just never want to get divorced again"

Believe me, if your partner is divorced he/she is probably seriously underplaying how wonderful things were with their ex wife/husband.They will tell y9u how terrible it was at trhe end up but they wont tell you how bloody marvellous it was for the first few years.
It is a VERY big deal to get married, especially the first time! If the big deal falls apart, why repeat the process? You can't recapture the magic. You stand at the altar saying "for better, for worse...forever and ever..." and one or both of you have said it all before!!( and meant it then too)

Simonhoward our views are so similar it is a shame you and I are both spoken for

And, if i am brutally honest ( I'm on a roll now) I don't want to remarry because if it all falls apart this time a break up no matter how painful is never as bad as a divorce.

Jasper - I am sorry to hear of your experience of marriage and divorce, but would like to say that the experiences of many friends and family members seems to indicate that yes, the first marriage was a romantic, passionate, delightful time which was devastating when it went wrong.

But the consensus is that that is why it went wrong - real, lasting love is hard work, takes real commitment through thick and thin, requires highly developed communication skills and, most importantly, when we are very young we often do not know ourselves enough to choose the right person with whom to spend the rest our lives with. This self-knowledge and knowledge of others only comes with age and experience.

Totally agree with you Mopsy - Jasper, you are generalising and I don't think your theory applies to each and every person. My dh was married for five years to his first wife & they got married because she was pregnant. They had very little in common and after a few years it was apparent that it wasn't really going anywhere. DH & I have now been together 15 years, so to say that "it only works the first time around" is untrue. DH's brother is on his THIRD marriage and is says he is happiest with his third wife. I agree that divorce is painful but I don't think it's everyone's reason for shying away from another marriage.

Eulalia

I do attend a very few events but I usually stay for ths shortest time possible. It's not always the events themselves that are the problem it is that I tend not to get on with other people in a social situation too well. I'm fairly anti social but everyone who knows me knows that is how I am and they aren't put out by it. Saying that though I do have a good number of friends so I can't be that bad, I just don't like the larger group gatherings.

I do make an effort at times to socialise but I find them exceedingly uncomfortable most of the time. Hence the reason for me not going to the pub or nightclubs and it is rare for me to even go to parties of any sort.

As for being a party pooper, some people have called me that but all my friends soon realise that it is not them that I don't want see but the situation that I don't want to be in so they are fine about it.

Jasper

Nice to see I'm not the only one like this.

And as you say we are both spoken for, you are 5 years too late I think.

But isn't it always the way, I spent 10 years between my first and second relationships with no female company and 3 weeks after I met my dw I started getting other women showing interest and asking if I'm available.

Fair enough Simon, as you say you let everyone know where you stand. And it sounds like you are accommodating of other people's needs. Just a thought - what will you do when you dd is older with regard to birthday parties, trips out to the pictures etc? Will your wife just go with her on her own? Sorry I hope I am not being too nosy!

Also agree with you Mopsy. Jasper - sorry but aren't you being a little pessimistic. I was married before but in retrospect he was not 'THE ONE'. I was naive and not very confident. I thought this man was the only person who would want me. I am much, much happier in this marriage and very glad we did marry. DH was also married before but he feels firmly that I am 'the one' as well. Sometimes it just takes awhile to find the right person and perhaps a few 'trial runs'.

Not that 2nd marriages necessarily work any more than first ones do. It is down to the individuals concerned. So it can be the exact opposite of what you state, that the first time round it doesn't work. In fact many of us learn from our mistakes of the first time and make a special effort 2nd time.

Seems my point has been missed! I merely offer an explanation for why those who DON'T want to get married again may be feeling this way. By definition I am not talking about those who DO want to get married again!
This thread was about the reluctance of some to remarry. I gave my explanation of my own reluctance and that of many I have spoken to.I was at no point suggesting second marriages don't work ( although statistically they ARE even more likely to fail than first ones). For me it seems foolish ( I repeat, FOR ME, I am not casting aspersions on those who feel differently so no need to rush to defend yourselves) to stand at the altar and promise to love, cherish etc. forever because I have done that before, meant it, and failed. For those who don't feel like this, fine. I may even change my mind and decide to get married again some day.
I repeat, I was offering an explanation as to why some people do not want to get married again.

and no. I am not remotely pessimistic

Eulalia

I would try to do as much with dd as possible as I know how much I missed out on when young due to my father always having to work all hours so I intend to improve on that a lot.

I may not always have the best of times and I know that there will be times I'd rather do things elsewhere but one of the commitments I made to myself and to dd and any others dw and I have is that I will be there for them as often as humanly possible and to make sure that they do not miss out on things.

I have even done a few dry runs to see how things would go on trips out when helping out with dw's brownie pack but I think I got stitched up. Last time I went it was a bowling evening and I had 4 8-9 y/o's demanding money with menaces (a bowling ball is a terrible weapon to threaten a guy with at their heights). Needless to say I put that one down to experience and I hope that I never have this problem with my daughter.

Simon - funny story. I guess outings with kids are more fun as children are just so much more spontaneous and not the same as the dull polite talk we adults can sometimes engage in (Mumsnet excluded of course!)

Jasper - sorry if I mistunderstood. You certainly haven't come across as pessimistic before.

Jasper I didn't meant to offend or patronise, I'm sorry. I appreciate you being so honest about your experience and apologise for misreading your motive for posting.

Dp goes away with his dd early tomorrow am and I am hoping that having some distance will help me to see things more clearly, and give him room to think too. Miss him like mad already tho ...

Dp went this morning; feel ok but miss him. I've been thinking, I'd like to send him a message or something. I could send him a text but would like to do something more special; I have the address and email of the campsite so could send him a card or message that way, or could get something sent like a rose?

Also wondering what to say...something loving and meaningful without mentioning marriage! Any ideas very welcome, thanks Mopsy

Mopsy,
My idea is, don't send anything!! The guy is probably already a bit confused as to your reasons for not going and maybe a bit hacked off with you (sorry if I'm getting this wrong) for that so let him have a break and give yourself one too. If you talk, then I'd say keep it functional and upbeat don't go on about how much you miss him etc. When he gets home, have a surprise for him - you in sexy underwear, nice meal, whatever turns you on, in whatever way you like! And really try not to go on about stuff. I'm absolutely not having a go at you as I like reading your stuff and you have written some nice words to me but IME if you can just force yourself to leave things alone for a while, you can get it in perspective and the problem doesn't loom so blackly on the horizon. Give your head a rest from it and when he gets back, just be positive and pleased to see him. I read a great article on this sort of subject in the Daily Telegraph (someone sent it to me, just so I'm not pigeonholed as a DT reader!)which i have frantically tried to find for you on the web but to no avail. What it was saying was that with men, sometimes there isn't as much to talk about as we women think there is, we should just take a step back and chill a bit more. Apologies for gross over generalisation!! Sorry for going on Mopsy, but do take care of yourself and good luck. Now I need to go and moan about my own relationship problems on a different thread. Physician heal thyself...?!

Thank you Salalex, I think you are right.

The compliments are returned and I am going to post something for you on the separation thread now.

best wishes, Mopsy

Mopsy, no offence taken at all! I hope I have not made you sad with my comments about reluctant remmarriagers like myself. I positively envy those brave enough to give the whole marriage bit another whirl.
As a more positive rejoinder, reluctance to remmarry in my case ( and I am sure many others) has nothing at all to do with not loving my new partner or not commiting to them.
Someone wise once said you can tell if someone loves you ( and no, it's not in his kiss ) by whether or not they make time to be with you.
Incidentally, do you live together?

I think Salalex's advice is spot on, by the way.
Let him miss you a bit!

Hi Jasper
No we don't live together, but we are nearby in the same city and feel welcome/comfortable in eachothers' homes. On average we spend 4 nights together per week - the other 3 nights he has rehearsals for 2 different orchestras and a yoga class. So he comes to me as much as he can, and we spend almost every weekend together. I would love to live with him, but neither of our houses are big enough for all of us so that will be a major upheaval.

I believe absolutely that he loves me at the moment - I think my desire for a demonstration of commitment stems partly from my fear that it could all come crashing down around my ears...

Hi Mopsy

I so agree that it is not a good idea to keep going on and on about marriage and commitment. IME many men just hate it, not because they don't feel love, but because talking about their feelings on our terms is very uncomfortable for them. And, as I said earlier, for many men, it is emasculating for the woman to chase them and propose. For some men, it is a huge deal to propose etc. They really like it and want it to be a surprise. I know when I 'mentioned' it to my now dh, it just postponed the proposal! I think you should try to chill, enjoy your lovely relationship, spend time together etc. You say you hate the way he only wants the relationship on his terms - but by threatening to break up with him if he won't propose, aren't you saying that you only want the relationship on your terms? He sounds a nice guy. Why not give it a bit longer. Relax, enjoy each other and just see what happens next? If after another year or so there is no movement, think again, but why rush? I also agree, don't send a man a rose - just go on holiday with him. Maybe he's worried about the effect of marriage on his dd - if so, a week with her and your kids might persuade him that it can work. It's a very big deal trying to merge two families - I'm not surprised he wants to wait rather than rush in. My dh has a daughter too, and we took it pretty slowly partly for her sake.

Mopsy I am sure many others reading your post will think, as I do your arrangement is almost perfect
I am convinced i would get along better with dp if we did not spend so much time in close proximity.

Interesting you admit part of your desire for marriage is to sort of preserve the relationship, to prevent it all coming apart. I am sure you know in your heart of hearts that getting married would in no way prevent this happening if things were to go pear shaped.
It does sound to me as if you have a lovely relationship with a lovely man. It may well be your best bet not to change a thing!

Jasper, not true ! You are generalising.

My mother was divorced twice, something she is very unhappy about but now is with her 'soul mate'.

I married my childhood sweetheart but we ended up divorcing. I am happier now than I ever was and it is definitely better second time round. I am honest with my dh about my past relationship, in fact he knew us both well then so he knew (he was an usher at my first wedding, that's a bit sick I know !) the good and the bad in our relationship.

I don't regret getting married to my first dh because he was my first love and if I hadn't I think I always would have wondered and it would have ruined any potential relationship. However, things weren't right and we are both far happier now.

I am madly in love with my dh and it is much BETTER than my first relationship. We are a team, partners and equal. I never had this in my past relationship, I always wore the trousers which I hated.

I know that every case is different and it sounds like you weren't so lucky. Divorce is a bad and painful thing, I know that first hand both with my own and my mother experiences but it doesn't mean that it can never be good again with someone else.