What's your definition of gaslighting?

[ExpatTrailingSpouse]

For whatever reason, a lot of articles have been popping up lately about gaslighting, so just wanted to get opinions on what that means to everyone.

I've been thinking hard about it and by definition feel like I've been gaslighted in the past, but then wonder if I'm just being paranoid.

Any examples people care to share? I'd love to hear.

[Openup41]

You know when you are being gaslighted or at least that something is not right. You feel it in your gut. There is only so long you can lie to yourself.

My ex gaslighted me constantly. I knew he was wrong and when I flagged it up he argued with me and called me names.

Some examples;

It was my birthday drinks with friends and he did not come along due to not having enough money to buy drinks etc etc. A week or so later I mentioned I was fine as I did not want him to feel embarrassed at not being able to pay in the presence of my friends. Ex proceeded to state this was not his reason for declining.

He twisted almost everything in order to make me doubt myself and it worked. My self-esteem was already down the pan. He knew this. He pushed the buttons and enjoyed watching me explain myself and squirm.

He was also controlling. If I did not do something as/when he wanted, he would threaten to not accompany me to family events etc. It was his way of controlling me.

On one occasion I did not answer his call when preparing for my showcase at uni. It was deep in my bag and I did not hear it ringing. On calling him back he was angry and shouted he was no longer coming as I did not pick up his call.

Nasty piece of work. I really did not know men could be so spiteful. I ended it two years later. He was angry and refused to accept it - not because he wanted me back but because I finally had the upper hand!

Happily married now to someone who does not have a hint of this trait ☺☺

[Openup41]

My dm has a completely different recollection of our childhood than we do. It is scary.

I have an excellent memory. I can recall the month and year of events going way back which annoys my dm no end. It also annoys my friends who want to remember their past slightly different to how it actually was.

We have had arguments and she refuses to acknowledge particular incidents took place or she changes bits here and there.

[ravenmum]

Normal human memory isn't reliable, is it? We all select what we remember to some extent, and remember things in a certain way that fits in with the story of our life as we see it. Sometimes we have false memories.
TED talk on the topic: blog.ted.com/tk-elizabeth-loftus-at-tedglobal-2013/

I have an awful memory - can easily forget entire incidents altogether, though nothing important afaik! My ex had a better memory but I noticed something a bit odd - he would often tell the same stories again and again ad nauseum, but they would gradually change, and he didn't notice. In one case we lost a key, and would have had to pay a fine, but the janitor who gave us the key didn't make us sign for it, so we claimed we hadn't received it. Pure 100% knowing lie just to avoid the fine. Then I heard my ex telling someone about how this janitor accused us of having the key when he never gave it to us. Afterwards I asked why he told that story when it was a lie - but he couldn't remember that it was a lie any more. He thought he was telling the truth. I'm pretty sure now that when he tells his gf lies about me, he's convinced himself they are the truth too.

For me, gaslighting is when the gaslighter deliberately, knowingly makes their partner think that they are mistaken or did something wrong even though the gaslighter knows full well it wasn't the case, not just because he remembers it differently.

My ex never did that, but he did use to claim that he didn't know about things when I am pretty sure he did. He'd turn up late for something important claiming that he didn't know it was so important. Very frustrating as I couldn't be angry with someone who was so "innocently unaware". If I was pissed off he'd remind me that he didn't know about it, so it always came out looking like I was being unreasonable.

[stubbornstains]

That's what keeps us awake at night though, isn't it, ravenmum? "Did he do it on purpose or does he just have a bad memory?" That's why it's so subtle, and damaging.

XP was round last night, and we were hashing out the details of a new overnight arrangement for the DC. I mentioned I was disappointed that he wasn't going to take them for a night I thought he was going to, as I wanted to go out. He offered to pay half the money for a babysitter (WTF?!?!). Although unnecessary, I accepted as I wanted to call his bluff- he has form for making unrealistic promises that he doesn't keep to.

I said I was surprised as he hadn't done that in the past when we were together, and he got angry and accused me of lying (he did then chuck a tenner at me, so that's a win I guess ). Cue me lying awake half the night thinking "God, was I unfair to him? DID he pay for the babysitter sometimes? I seem to recall coming back several times and waiting for him to offer to pay(because he'd previously offered) and then shrugging and paying the whole amount when he didn't put his hand in his pocket, but DID he pay once or twice?.

[ExpatTrailingSpouse]

I guess that's the rub - is it revisionist because they want to not look like the bad guy or is it malicious? (lurkings mil is clearly the malicious sort). Either way, if it causes the person on the receiving end to suffer, it's not okay.

[Imbroglio]

My understanding of gaslighting is when its done to make you feel like you can't trust your own judgement.

Eg, an example of gaslighting might be that you arrange to meet at 6pm to catch a certain train. You are worried that 6pm is too late and say this clearly, requesting that you meet at quarter to. Gaslighter turns up at 10 past and you miss the train. Gaslighter assures you that you said meet at quarter past. They don't apologise and spend the rest of the evening saying you definitely said quarter past.

Or you arrange an important appointment for Tuesday. Check and double check diaries. Then on the day they say that they can't make Tuesday, have never been able to make Tuesday, and that that you knew that.

The key thing is that this happens again, and again and again, and that it is deliberate - its not lying to cover up their mistake.

[Notapodling]

Did he do it on purpose or does he just have a bad memory?" That's why it's so subtle, and damaging.
Yes, this. We've all had lapses of memory and know we remember things differently, that's why we'll assume we're the one who could be wrong when someone we trust swears we are and the more it happens, the less we trust ourselves.
It's also why we'll sometimes admit we're wrong when we know we're not especially when it's about something as small as not putting the dishwasher on like one of the other posters said.
I don't think my ex ever set out to deliberately control me. I think he just didn't like being wrong or for me to be cross with him about anything so it was always easier for him to lie and then persuade me to apologise for not trusting him.
He'd always look so hurt that I'd accuse him when I'd try and talk to him about whatever it was he'd actually done that I'd always end up apologising for hurting his feelings.
So glad I'm out of it.

[IreallyKNOWiamright]

@expact mine does this aswell particularly with the women then wonders why I feel insecure. Happens over and over so I don't go anywhere with him now where we see work colleagues as it causes so many arguments

[MotherFuckingChainsaw]

My top tips for dealing with that gas lighter in your life are:

Always text And if poss email anything to do with dates and times, and copy everyone involved into the email now the 'you said the train was 6:15' incident becomes
'no dear, I text you at 10am this morning, and you read the text one minute later, I think you need to go to specsavers '

Obvs the lying shites will STILL try to twist it but this kind of tactic really takes the fun out of it for them, especially if you mildly jibe them for THEIR 'lapses'

The cockroach story is SO familiar, well versions of it ad infinitum. I usually wait whil the bulshitter has had the audience reaction the laugh/ smile good naturedly, then say ' nice one Billy Bullshit but what ACTUALLY happened was...but never let the truth stand in the way of a good story eh?'
The 'never let the truth stand in the way' then becomes a catchphrase, every time they embark on an embellished story, smile fondly like you would to a toddler with an over active imagine and just repeat the catchphrase.

They are exhausting to deal with, but their key weapon against you is the knowledge that you want to be reasonable, once you ditch that you are better equipped. Stop. Being. Reasonable.

I've got 2 in my life, one malicious and one a slightly more harmless bullshitter by habit. Un mumsnetty to everyone having to deal with this.

[NorthernChinchilla]

Notapodling that's how I've experienced it. Less a desire to control, more an utter inability to ever be in the wrong.
Eg. I have a long standing hatred of being ignored whilst OH fuck about on phone, which he knows. I spend 20 minutes sitting next to him in silence in the living room as he fucks around on his phone. He puts phone away and I point out what he's been doing, again. He flat out denies he's been on his phone

[Imbroglio]

Always text And if poss email anything to do with dates and times, and copy everyone involved into the email now the 'you said the train was 6:15' incident becomes
'no dear, I text you at 10am this morning, and you read the text one minute later, I think you need to go to specsavers '

Yes with bells on. I have been known to print off a ream of emails which confirmed the truth beyond any doubt and still be told that my messages are ambiguous. I no longer arrange anything by phone with this person, ever.

[LurkingHusband]

Always text

You'd be amazed how often texts aren't received ... and this just opens up a new battlefront ...

"Well, you say you texted me" ...

And, of course, the reverse :

"But I did text you ...."

BTDTGTTS

[GingerbreadCake]

My ex did this. He left a pan of cereal (?) in the bath and swore on his life it wasn't him and made people believe it was me. It was definitely him but to this day he denies it.

[MotherFuckingChainsaw]

LH that's what I love about the modern phones, it TELLS you when they've read the fucker.

[ExpatTrailingSpouse]

Chainsaw - good advice, which is what finally worked with the cockroach story (kept pointing out that he'd not been helping me at the time... ). And yes, i do love the Read receipt on texts... only it's not turned on on his work phone. that and the fact that he never bloody reads them, or checks his voicemail or answers the phone... doesn't help me much.

*Chinchilla - Less a desire to control, more an utter inability to ever be in the wrong" - exactly, but where do you draw the line. our counsellor says something along these lines, as opposed to a malicious intent. but when it happens over and over again...

also, i think in our case, a desire to be contradictary about every bloody thing - if i said the sky is blue, he'd be sure to immediately blurt out it's green.

i went for individual session last week and asked counsellor to reconfirm that she heard him state X, then say oh maybe Y happened, and then say well i never said X, in our previous couples session. So i know it's not just me.

[BlackeyedSusan]

it is really upsetting, even when you know the person doing it is unaware due to age/anxiety. )my mum has started misremembering now she is v old) you begin to doubt your sanity. usually I can disprove it by finding the relevent item in the freezer or under the cooker or back of the cupboard,

to have it done deliberately by someone who is out to make you think you are mad must be so much worse.

[ExpatTrailingSpouse]

i thought this article had a good summary. especially of those things that don't overtly shout gaslighting, but after you're left wondering what happened.

www.sheknows.com/love-and-sex/articles/1075333/what-is-gaslighting

[WoodenTrees]

Six weeks the other side I've been seeing the doctor every week for three weeks (her instigation) and I have been told by said doctor today that I'm suffering from PTSD. I'm being referred for Trauma therapy. Apparently it's very common after particularly long periods of abuse.

[keepingonrunning]

Wooden Did your GP give you the diagnosis? And who is providing trauma therapy - a counsellor, a group, a psychologist?
I'm interested because awareness & treatment of psychological abuse by health professionals in my area appears to be non-existent.

[Iflyaway]

If you feel it, don't doubt yourself.

You can watch the original on Youtube - it's a brilliant film-

[WoodenTrees]

keepon Yes G.P. gave diagnosis, therapy is via local Woman's Aid group, specialising in this particular type of PTSD.

[user1475501383]

I never thought I'd write about this in public even anonymously, but here we go...

The worst incident of gaslighting I witnessed happened 2 years ago, on the day that would become 'the day I broke up with XH'.

Me , XH & DS were visiting my birth country. 2 hours before our flight back to UK, DS threw a tantrum about not wanting to put his clothes on and XH (who was then my H) started telling him off. DS argued back (he was 7). XH said 'if you don't do what you're told I'm going to smack you'. DS then hit XH. XH slapped him back - and for some reason, not necessarily deliberately, the smack landed on DS's private boy bits.

DS went hysterical and XH said 'that's it, you're going on the step', he forced DS on the step, where DS kept shouting 'Mummy, Daddy hit me on the privates'. XH would not let me go to DS, he said DS needs to sit on the naughty step alone. I was exasperated; DS kept shouting Mummy and I said 'It's okay just try and be calm, you'll be out of there soon' (as XH refused to let me go to DS); then DS shouted again "Mummy, Daddy hit me on the privates" and I said "I know, I'm so sorry, I'll give you a cuddle very soon".

To which XH said: "I did not hit him in the privates". I said "I'm sorry but I saw it, I'm not saying you meant it but..."

Then XH started laying it on me and shouting at me that I was a bad Mum and that I had done nothing to discipline DS. I said I don't believe i'm a bad mum, and I know what I saw and it's not good to deny it (I was thinking it would really mess our child up! He knew what he witnessed and needed it to be validated and I was not even saying XH did it deliberately)

That made XH so angry that he said 'right, you're not coming on the plane'. I begged and pleaded, I said okay we can even separate and I'll move out but please let me fly back; he told me to stay in my own country (FYI I've lived in UK for nearly a decade) and that he'd take our son to UK.

At this point my mum joined us and thought I had done something awful as MrSuperWonderfulHusband whom she adored was angry at me, and started telling me'just say sorry just say sorry'.... XH then took my handbag and turned it upside down shaking all the contents onto the sofa... I said I'm not going to be treated like this and I will move out. DS came from the step crying and hugging me and we cuddled as XH and my DM were both shouting at me.

Just before we were due to fly to the airport, XH said 'Okay now you've calmed down you can come with us'. I declined as I said I had already made arrangements to fly back the next day. I said goodbye to DS and tried to reassure him I was only flying back the next day.

Then my DF appeared to take us to the airport and when XH said I wasn't coming DF started shouting at me for wasting the plane ticket!

They left to the airport, I packed a bag and went to my friend's to stay overnight, then flew to UK the next day.

For several weeks, DM kept calling me telling me I was destroying the family. Eventually some new facts came to light that made them (my parents) little by little realise that XH was not the MisterPerfectHusband he had presented himself as. But... that was the most horrible day of my life, and I still don't know what else I could have done, although I now know that letting XH take DS on the plane meant the beginning of a custody disagreement that has now gone on for 2 years, and nearly 1 year in court.

XH has the upper hand, because he has a gang of admirers, both male and female, who are willing to write outrageously manipulated statements about my 'lack of parenting ability' to the court. Most of all, he has the upper hand because he became the de facto resident parent when I did not board that plane with him.

He tries to deny in court that he stopped me coming on the plane, telling instead that I chose to leave him.

I still don't know what I should have done, against the force of XH and DF and DM.... This remains one of the most puzzling experiences of my life, and I can't even begin to guess how our DS experienced the situation and everything that has happened since....

[stubbornstains]

That's awful user . Sounds like you have issues with your parents too, in the sense of them not being supportive, and XH cottoned on to that and manipulated them against you.

[user1475501383]

Thanks stubbornstains.

You're absolutely right. XH knew I had a long-standing issue with my parents with them thinking I was still a complete child. I'm their only child and they were very overprotective in my growing up in some rather strange ways. They were delighted when XH came along as XH is significantly older than me. They would not believe me when I tried to explain something, but when XH explained the same thing, they'd often end up agreeing - I used this to my advantage many times when I needed to get through to them. They would have never believed me unless something came from XH. And the incident I described was just XH sinking so low, knowing exactly how to manipulate my parents, so that everyone was attacking me at once except for DS.

But the worst part of that day of the gaslighting clusterfuck was that XH gaslighted out own son. That he denied what DS experienced and what I witnessed with my own eyes. "Daddy hit me on the privates" - No I didn't" -- at that point I thought this is simply NOT right. Children need to be validated or it will drive them insane! It's strange in some ways that I had to a degree allowed XH to gaslight me on multiple occasions over the years, but when I saw that happening to DS it just crossed some fundamental line for me. Of course me defending XH then made everything go tits up with regards to XH switching his attention to attacking me with his minions my parents.

That was a terrible day, and there were many times when I knew XH was lying to me before, BUT I thought I needed to pander to his male ego to keep peace in the family. But to see him do that to DS was just.... it still makes my blood boil. You do NOT invalidate what a child has experienced. You just do not do that, especially in such a blatant manner.

At least my parents are now principally supportive of me, they sort of caught up pretty quickly after the separation on what exactly had been going on behind closed doors and how low XH was willing to stoop simply just to 'win' and to be 'proven right' in all aspects. We are currently in litigation regarding our son, which is a miserable experience.

Thanks for your comment.

[user1475501383]

*defending DS to XH -- some kind of Freudian slip there. I defended XH too many times in the past to other people when there were signs of trouble...