Can MN give me a good retort to 'I know I could make you want it If you gave me the chance to turn you on'

[TemporarilyLost]

I'm slowly but surely making my way out of a damaging relationship and until resently had been gaining strength to say no to sex I didn't want. I managed to achieve this more or less if it's been a 'right lets fuck' type thing without foreplay. An argument that completely floors me every time however is the one I outlined in the OP. How are you meant to respond to that? I really struggle to respond to it without his feelings being hurt and tempers rising. What sort of partner turns down the offer of the other partner turning them on?

It's like I'm not even giving him a chance to show me that he might change my mind. Is it possible that sometimes you just don't want someone to try and turn you on because you're just too tired and not in the mood and feeling unattractive or is that just being stubborn and selfish to not even let them try?

OP - I'm so glad you are (slowly) extricating yourself from this; I really hope you can do it (faster) . With a bit more confidence, and more thought for your feelings, and less for his!

Practically, I think I'd say 'you coercing/forcing/pressuring (use one or all of these words) me into sex is actually a massive turnOFF, so please leave me alone right now.'

who turns down the opportunity to experience something nice?

It's not nice though is it. It's coerced sex that you don't want.

WA are right that no means no. It's not your job to make him understand why you don't want sex. Whatever you say won't work because he doesn't care why you don't want it. You don't need any reason other than you don't want sex.

You can't tell him the truth which is that he's a sexually abusive arsehole and you're getting ready to leave him.

"Being badgered for sex and then mauled against my wishes is the biggest turn-off I can think of. No means no, not maybe".

Just concentrate of the first part of his sentence: "I know I could make you".

Op i agree with the pp about abuse and i think you need to get very far away from this man. BUT, if you really want some sort of explanation of your feelings that he might take on board (and i warn you that what i am about to write is probably ridiculous) you could try this: Let's say you offer your dp a meal and he says he isn't hungry. Then you tell him you will make him his favourite, he always loves that. And he says no i am not hungry, no matter how delicious it is, I really don't want to eat anything right now. So you say, but it will be fab, wait til you taste it, i will make dessert too, and a starter. It will be the best meal you ever had. And he will say, look i dont want to hurt your feelings but i just don't want to eat right now. So you persist, telling him how lovely it will be, how much trouble you will go to to ensure he enjoys it until finally he will say, i am not fucking hungry! No matter how good its going to be, i just don't want it!
Do you think he would get that?

I'm getting much better at resisting obviously selfish sex from him. I think what I struggle with in the senario I posted is that I feel he has a good argument. He is offering to give me pleasure as well which he is capable of doing and who turns down the opportunity to experience something nice?

Would you have a different response to that if you weren't thinking about yourself? I'm wondering how ingrained this has become. Do you believe that everyone should have sex with their partner, if their partner wants too, and they don't particularly but don't have a reason, or do you just not think that's an option for you?

Unfortunately you're not finding the answer that you want because it doesn't exist. If DP didn't want sex (in any capacity - from touching to oral or full sex), I wouldn't want to have it with him. I want him frequently, but only when he's in the mood. I would not want to talk him into it. He would not want to talk me into it. We'd never get to "I know I could make you like it if you give it a chance..." because that's coercive in itself, it's not really an offer for you - it's still for him. He wants to do something sexual. You do not. That should be the end - he shouldn't try and talk you round.

Who turns down the offer of something nice?
I do. Lots of people. I don't always go and see friends, because I don't want too. I don't always go for drinks, or out for food, or have my favourite meal. I don't have a Magnum every day. I don't wear my favourite outfit. I love all of those things, but I don't do them all the time - sometimes I turn them down because I'm not quite in the mood, even though I love them all. The same is true for sex. Sometimes you turn it down even if you know it'd probably be fine once it gets going, because you're just not feeling it.

I understand you're leaving him, and it's a work in a progress, and you don't want to anger him in the meantime - but it might prove critical both now and for your recovery once this is finally over that you can see that there isn't, and shouldn't be, an answer to this. You don't need a reason, you don't need to explain to him exactly why you don't want to.

You may well need to placate him, if you have to stay with him whilst you're making plans, and in that case, you might find it easier to be non confrontational. I can understand that, but be careful with excuses. He may well start turning them round and questioning them - how can you be tired, you haven't done much today? I'll help you relax, etc. He isn't respecting your right to say no and he's still coercing you, so you need to be prepared that your reasoning probably won't be good enough for him.

All the best, and I hope you're far away from him soon.

I recognise her too, Iknow, but presumably the nc is for a good reason, so why give out info about her that she hasn't given in this thread?

OP there are lots of good, non-confrontaional responses to 'put him off' on this thread. I really hope you can find the strength to leave, and soon. I don't think he's going to change, and his behaviour has been totally unacceptable since the time you met him.

OP, No Means No is not easy in theory, it is also easy in practice. Anything else is rape. Rape is not about strangers grabbing women in alleyways, the majority of rape is done by women's husbands, partners and exes.

If you need a reason to say no, that's sexually abusive. Do you understand? Just insisting you give him a reason is not the behaviour of a normal, decent man who respects you. And if he won't accept a reason, that's rape.

I am genuinely concerned about what has happened to you in your past and life that has led you to this place where you think any of what you dacribe is remotely normal or acceptable.

The reason why you don't want to accept the pleasure he's offering is because you know, and your body knows, that this is still abuse and sexual assault. Yes, sexual assault can be gentle and include acts that make women have orgasms - it's the fact that he insists on doing it despite you not wanting to is the assault and abuse. In fact, many abusers carry out abuses and rapes that feel nice deliberately so that they can deny that they did anything wrong. Forcing a woman into a sexual act, even if the focus is on her orgasm, is still the actions of a rapist.

Thanks, there have been loads of really good suggestions to use to him but also to make my saying no justified in my mind.
I've seen the tea/consent video and it makes complete sense like that. When it was doing the rounds on Facebook a while back my partner saw it too and nodded along in agreement like the 'new man' he thinks he is. I like the cake analogy too. It helps to make sense in my mind why I can say no (I know I should be able to say no anyway).

Anchor I don't think anyone should have to have sex because their partner says so, more that I thought many people like me just did because otherwise home life would be unpleasant. I'm learning this is wrong. What you've said in response to my question 'who turns down the offer of something nice is brilliant. It helped me to make sense of my feelings around this particular argument. He's already said such things about 'it will relax you, you'll love it when we start, how can you be too tired etc' if I've said no. The exact examples you gave!

X post Dworkin. Nothing awful has happened to me in the past to make me the way I am today. I just met him when I was very young and didn't know relationships were not meant to be like this. I'm on a steep learning curve.

Just saying "no, I'm not in the mood", should be enough in a normal relationship.

You aren't having a normal relationship by the sounds of it been there myself and it is hard when you doubt yourself and they are so persuasive. I hope you get out of that relationship really soon

OP, that IS the past stuff that's made you think it's okay or not know how to assert your boundaries and feel bad if you try.

Yep, sometimes I really feel like he's done a number on me.
In theory I'm so assertive and equal but in practice it can fail me.
How long can you just pretend things are ok before everything comes crashing down. I feel like I'm running out of time. Either I get out or I put up and shut up.

would it help to refer to the tea video with a smile, if he's seen it and nodded along to it? "Im just not in the mood for tea?"

it might appeal to his sense of 'new man'ness

He actually believes he's a good and respectful man because he's so different to his Dad and brothers. He doesn't see how much damage he can do.

I think he's an expert at saying what society wants him to say. He's learnt expertly because I spent a lot of my early twenties going on and on about feminism without ever truly applying it to myself

Ok well now it's time for him to see feminism in action.

there have been loads of really good suggestions to use to him but also to make my saying no justified in my mind

You don't need suggestions to feel justified, you have to work within yourself to get to the point that you grasp that not wanting to have sex, whatever the reason, is justified of itself.

Nobody has sex with someone because they present a good argument. They either want to or they don't.

You are not connecting his domination of you as a person with what is being done to you sexually. Its how he maintains his power, and why you find it hard to escape.

Just tell him to fuck off for good. You don't fancy him anymore.

How about

"Where I am in my headspace at the moment, I need to feel I have full autonomy over my body way more than I need an orgasm. The fact that it might be nice if I got into it isn't a good reason to overcome the fact that I don't want it and it is my body."

A relative of mine told me about a quite traumatic experience of being a jury member in a rape trial. The rapist was using in their defence the fact that the woman that he raped had had an orgasm, and therefore enjoyed it, and therefore it couldn't have been rape. My relative successfully convinced her fellow jury members in their discussions that this wasn't a valid argument - orgasm is a physical response to stimulation and whilst it is easier to reach orgasm when you are willing and enthusiastic it is certainly not impossible for someone to orgasm when they are neither willing nor enthusiastic - so his ability to get you to orgasm does not make coercive sex acceptable.

cexu did she succeed in convincing the rest of the jury? I sure hope so.

cexu - it used to asked of a Rape victim 'did she enjoy it'? Unbelievable. Like it validates Rape; she enjoyed it/orgasmed so it can't possibly have been Rape.

Happily, it is no longer acceptable to suggest it. (How long ago was that case cexu?)

Taking everything into consideration, barring the fact it is sadly illegal, I think tapping "fuck off" in Morse code on his skull with a hammer is the only effective option you have. I hope you get yourself out of this horrible situation. Nobody should be fearful of leaving a relationship they don't want to be in.

cexu that's interesting and sad. I hope he was convicted.

So I tried the various lines but he didn't really want to listen. He just wants to know why I'm suddenly not 'putting out' (choice phrase for a man in his late 30's ) and was pissed of that I suggested he had a wank instead. Cue lots of shouting at me then a morning long sulk till I apologised later.

Now I've got my period, so that takes care of it for now.

herotherhalf that sounds great, I'm having skull chiselling fantasies on my way to work!

So sorry for you OP, does it reinforce in your mind that this is not normal when despite you being perfectly polite about not wanting sex he escalated into shouting at you for not complying with his orders? That isn't normal and neither is sulking until you apologise. Please keep working on your exit from this man asap. You don't have to live with this. In the same way as you didn't realise there was anything untoward in your relationship with him, you probably can't imagine how much happier you'll be away from him, but believe me you will. Keep talking to women's aid and us for support when you can

What an awful situation to be in.
Get the hell out of there before he abuses you further. This should be priority number 1 now especially as the universe has sent you a well timed period!
Come on OP he doesn't respect you, he's basically raping you, he's not listening to you. I can't needing to say anything more than "I'm not in the mood" to my DH he might pout for a minute but that would be that. His reaction is scary. It's not normal. It sounds like he's trying every angle to get his. It's not just about sex thought sounds like he gets a kick out of wearing you down.
Yuk. Leave the bastard ASAP.

Yes i know it does reinforce that it's not normal behaviour. He is utterly talented and making me feel guilty and sorry for him. Before he got angry I tried to explain that me not wanting sex was about me, not him but he steamed in with how he felt rejected, humiliated and hurt and next time I want it (not likely) he's going to turn me down to teach me a lesson. Pathetic shit bag he is then got me to apologise.