Another fucking married man.

[ReallyFuckedOffAboutThis]

I'm not posting and running, although I am going out shortly so I won't be back for a while to respond.

I'm posting this here because I, obviously, can't tell anyone in real life but I'm really fucked off about it.

I've been on here for ages and I have been pretty vocal about how lack lustre/utterly non existent my love life is and how crap my experience with men has been. Aside from the few married men who've assumed I must be desperate and tried it on, no one is ever interested.

I am friends with a couple. I am close friends with them as a couple and with them independently of each other. This means that we spend a lot of time together with our children as families, but that I also go out for lunch/cinema/pub/exercising with each of the couple. It's fine. Nothing untoward has ever happened. All is good.

I know things aren't great between them at the moment and hasn't been for a couple of years or so. They've both told me this. They, obviously, have different perspectives, but the facts are the same. I think they each know the other talks to me but I never discuss the what the other person has said. But I do bear it in mind if I'm offering advice. Mostly neither of them want advice particularly, just to offload.

They are the perfect facebook family. FB is full of "my awesome family", "what would I do without my wonderful wife" and "my amazing hubby" type posts with the occasional #family thrown in. Lots of replies about how lucky they are and beautiful family... You know the sort.

Anyway... last week I went out somewhere with the husband. Nothing untoward, his wife knew, no problem, we often do it. And what did he do? Yep, he told me that he wasn't going to leave or anything, but that he loved me and would love to have the 'whole package' with me. I'm not quite sure if he was proposing an affair because I shut it down pretty quickly. I've seen them both since and it wasn't mentioned. I'm no different with either of them, but I will make sure I'm not on my own with him again.

There's no point telling her, I know (because I know her well) that she won't believe me, she will assume I have encouraged him somehow and she would drop me as a friend before she even challenged him about it.

I have very strong boundaries. Nothing will happen. But I'm fucked off that it's happened; it annoys me to read all the shit on FB about what a wonderfully happy family they are; and I'm fucked off that no one single is interested! Not really looking for advice, just having a rant.

Fucking ridiculous fucking arrogant fucking men.

Happened to me too. Then slagged me off to his wife and said I was chasing him! And I knew he fucked anything that moved and never used protection. I didn't tell her. Didn't want to get shot as the messenger.

She did end up leaving him. But it was such a fucked up relationship and such a nightmare separation. He never forgave her for leaving. She did fuck someone just before leaving which wasn't smart as it gave him ammunition.

I think it's inappropriate to listen to BOTH partners in this marriage bitch about each other unless you're a professional counsellor.

That's the point, Abyssinian. Neither of them did bitch about the other. There was the occasional expression of frustration at an incident or something. But it wasn't a regular or frequent thing and I certainly didn't sit around for hours counselling either of them. It was generally a 5 minute offload during which I said little/nothing that was followed up with an "anyway..." and that was it.

Why was it inappropriate for me to listen, but not inappropriate for them to offload?

Who said it wasn't? And the answer is, because your post happened. When couples independently discuss their relationship with a mutual friend, it's very unfair on the friend (who will usually end up the loser in the scenario).

Well it's been said a couple of times now that it was inappropriate for me to listen, but not that it was inappropriate for them to talk.

I suppose the only reason the mutual friend could be the loser is if one of the couple oversteps the boundary. I suppose I just didn't think it would ever be this man who did it.

But yeah, you're right, it did happen

yes, OP, I feel I've been told it was inappropriate for me to listen.

there is another potential thing here - my parents were friends with a couple who have major issues - actually they should have divorced years ago but neither of them can face giving up the house at 70+ - and at one point they had the nightmare scenario of one crying on the phone, and the doorbell rang, it was the other party with a packed bag!!

I didn't even make couple friends when I was in a couple though.

OP none of this is your fault. What you say about the woman makes me think even more that you should tell her though. If she knows she's staying with him despite a lot of crap, it could preseve your friendship and maybe she'll leave him.

I agree you should tell the wife and if she doesn't believe you, back the hell away from both of them. You and your friend are innocent and she deserves to know this is what her husband is about. He doesn't deserve your protection.

I'll give it some thought.

Lorelei76 In response to your earlier post asking can Men and Woman really be friends?. Well of course they can but it seems it can be a bit problematical. Let me tell you my experience., Many years ago whilst between marriages I had a lady friend she was an excellent listener, gave very good advice and had a lot of other very good qualities. I liked her company a lot we used to see each other quite a bit. I'd have liked to have turned that friendship into a relationship but there were reasons why that would never have worked but it didn't stop me fancying the pants off her, if you'll pardon the crudity!

There was always this underlying "attraction" to her which made it sometimes difficult if you follow what I mean. And that's also mentioned in the two articles i quoted that male-female attraction thing. I at the moment have two what I would call female friends one a lot younger, one just a bit younger and their lovely women the both of them in their own ways, but again there is that attraction issue hanging around and anything more that a friendship ain't gonna happen and there are reasons which I'm not going to go into here.

Shame that is there to sort of cloud the issue as a good female friend for a man is a shall we say valuable friendship. You can discuss issues with a woman that you couldn't or would find difficult with a man like emotive issues and the like.

As to married mutual friends haven't had any issues with that expect that one mates wife always starts moaning about the problems in their relationship if hes not around and some years ago called by on the off chance to see someone else little did i know that he'd just spit from his wife. His wife was at home and invited me in and told me of what was going wrong she also started on about how she wished she'd shacked up with me 'cos i was the better bloke and stated to get over friendly i made an excuse and was out of there pretty damn sharpish!

Still isn't their that saying or song "when friends become lovers";)

Think it is yet another example of a patriarchal society where single women are assumed to be man needy and can't possibly last without someone vying for their attention whether it be single married or otherwise attached.

Hence why many men will try given the chance. I have actually heard this from men directly too by the way! That men are naturally unfaithful given the opportunity.....

No doubt I will get flamed now ......

Happily I do not mix with couples as being a happily single person I do not find the dynamics work at all. Just my experience!

Hope this does not offend.

So sorry you're dealing with this just now OP. It's disappointing to realise that a friendship isn't as you believed it to be. You have mentioned a few times that he is a "dear" friend - but he isn't really. I would NEVER put any of my dear friends in such an uncomfortable and shitty situation. If he really cared for you as a friend or otherwise, he would have kept his feelings to himself and sorted out his marriage by working on their problems or leaving the relationship. He doesn't care about you or your relationship with his wife. I thought I had a really good pal - we had similar musical tastes and got on really well at work, there were no romantic or sexual feelings between us and we were both in happy relationships- until his pregnant wife became quite ill - then he declared that "he just wanted to know what it would feel like to kiss me". I haven't spoken to him since.

I read "the whole package" as a euphemism, in a testing-the-water kind of indirect way, for friendship + shags.
My first thought, I confess, was committed loving relationship + living together + children + roses round the door. But since he had said he wouldn't be leaving his wife I realised I had probably made that interpretation because I am a woman, not a man.

OP, a lot of friendships that involve a triangle don't work for this reason - eventually one friend will be somehow pushed out and usually it's the one who has been the sounding board while the other two did the bitching about each other to her/him.

I personally don't think you can be close friends with both of the couple - I think what works is when there's an understanding between the couple that ultimately you're the better friend to just one of them (and that person was your friend first). All three of you get along great, but there needs to be a boundary for the couple that they both don't vent about their relationship to you.

In my opinion, either of them should've grumbled to you about the other (and obviously they've said enough if you're sure of her reaction to all this).

I wouldn't vent about my marital issues to my parents because at end of the day, they will have relationship with my DH for the rest of their lives due to the kids. It's selfish of me to vent to them and not expect that to seep into the relationship they have with him.

Justaboy, but you can be mates with a woman you don't fancy!

Flower power, I think you're right. Again NAMALT but the way sine if them are, it's like they have to pull every single woman. Or just every woman!

Lorelei76 err I'll see if i can find one;)

Justaboy, that right there sums up why I don't want to make male friends anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.

Lorelei76 that seems a bit sad i seem to remember several posts ago that you did have a few male friends!. Perhaps i have that wrong?

Just
Yes I have two close male friends from school
What I'm saying is I'm put off making new ones and the articles you posted cement why
You seem to be saying "uh, men and women can't be friends" anyway, so why do you think it's a shame I don't want to make new male friends
Actually you're making no sense

I think a few males can be friends with women but not most. Whereas correct me if I am wrong but I think us females can quite happily be just platonic friends with a man without getting confused or wistful.

Well Lorelei76 that does make sense cos not a lot of sense as such can be made of the subject!.

If that makes any sense;?

Flowerpower4 that does make sense . Well as i see it;!.

Flower power is much clearer than you are Justaboy

but the end result is the same

I will not making friends with any more straight men!

I think that most women don't fancy their male friends, but most men would definitely consider sex with their female friends. In fact many men can only be friends with women they consider fanciable.

I read this years ago and have watched it being played out many times since, usually to the detriment of the woman.

FlowerPower I think you, sadly, may have a point. What a shame thought that some men are so emotionally unintelligent that they are incapable of having a female friend without crossing the boundary and screwing it up at some point.

If they could see women as friends and not just something to try and fuck, they might actually benefit from the genuine relationship that does exist.

I'd do something to protect yourself. Write what happened in a letter and post it to yourself and don't open. If you're ever accused of anything. You have it. Or tell a friend who won't gossip but who knows them.

I had an experience where I wasn't believed either. Long time ago. He told me he loved *friend but he'd always have an eye out elsewhere.

How flattering to both of us. I told her sister thinking let her sister do what she will with that information and it all kind of blew up and I was put on trial. How much had I had to drink, forced to go over who said what like it was to be typed up for court or something. Nightmare. We had mutual friends and when the mutual friends were out socialising somehow it was me who got side lined.